Sue Larkey [00:00:00]:
When a parent and a professional work together, it just is so much better for the child and for everyone. And really, your word, the Functional Family, I think to make it function as a teacher for the child, we have to work together and find that sweet spot where we can both support and understand each other. And to be honest, to go, I had a horrible child morning with my child or we haven't had a great day. But it doesn't change my love or compassion for your child. It's just getting to that point that we're working together.
Sharon Collon [00:00:33]:
Welcome to the ADHD Families Podcast. I'm your host, Sharon Collin, an award winning credentialed ADHD coach and consultant and mama and wife to a very ADHD family. I am seriously obsessed with making life easier for people with ADHD and those that support them. My business, the Functional Family, provides life changing support and strategies for adhd. I particularly love anything that saves time, decreases conflict and creates space for for fun. Do you want a life with your beautiful family that is more functional, fun and full of joy? Let's explore together the wonderful and sometimes wacky world of family life with ADHD in the mix.
Sue Larkey [00:01:19]:
Well, welcome everybody. This is a bit different today. You have Sue, AK and Sharon, which is a different format. We are going to be sharing this on both of our podcasts. So Sharon has the Functional Family which is all about ADHD and obviously my listeners, I'm a teacher and share about neurodiversity. So we were going to do two different podcasts but we're like, let's just share this together and bounce off each other and share tips and strategies. So Sharon, I'm so excited to try something new.
Sharon Collon [00:01:49]:
This is going to be fun and I can't wait to share both of our tips with our amazing listeners.
Sue Larkey [00:01:55]:
Yeah. So can you share with my audience a little bit about yourself?
Sharon Collon [00:01:59]:
Yes. Thanks, Sue. So my name is Sharon Collin. I have a beautiful business called the Functional Family and I'm a credentialed ADHD coach and parenting expert. And so I have the best job in the world. Although I think you might say that too soon. I get to support gorgeous families with ADHD and it is a personal story. It's a heart centered business for me.
Sharon Collon [00:02:18]:
All my family have ADHD and all of the letters. We've got lots going on and I really felt like back, you know, when we first started this business that we just needed a little bit of extra in home support and that's what I get to do for my job. I'm all systems focused. I Love a system. Love anything that buys you time and capacity. So it's a fabulous, fabulous business filled with a beautiful, kind human.
Sue Larkey [00:02:43]:
Yeah, I love that, Sharon. And look, it's funny, I never consider a business. I just consider it my love and passion. So I love the fact you said it's heart centered. Because if you ask me, I always just go, I'm just one teacher trying to make a difference. And often I get these big emails from him. I'm like, I'm not a big organization. It's just me, my husband backing me up, and a few uni students who step in and out.
Sue Larkey [00:03:11]:
Because similar to you, my lived experience is being a classroom teacher, having children and not learning anything about this at uni, not knowing what to do. And it's. This is why I'm excited we're talking together. Because nearly every one of my books I have co authored with a parent, because I've written 18 books and I think nearly every one of them has been co authored with a parent. Because in my world, when a parent and a professional work together, it just is so much better for the child and for everyone. And really, your word, the functional family. I think to make it function as a teacher for the child, we have to work together and find that sweet spot where we can both support and understand each other. And to be honest, to go, had a horrible morning with my child, or we haven't had a great day.
Sue Larkey [00:04:01]:
But it doesn't change my love or compassion for your child. It's just getting to that point that we're working together.
Sharon Collon [00:04:08]:
Yeah, I love your origin story too, Sue. That's really beautiful. So how many years have you been doing this?
Sue Larkey [00:04:15]:
Well, I was saying 30, and then one of my friends who's retiring and we started teaching together and I hate that R word. She told me it was 35. So not happy. I told her she's off my Christmas list.
Sharon Collon [00:04:32]:
Yeah, look, time flies when you're having fun, Sue. And you know, you've done such amazing work in this space. Obviously you've written a whole bunch of books and really helping families. I've had so many of my clients. You've got to talk to Sue. You've got to talk to sue because you guys will get along great and you're doing such great work. And so, you know, I'm so excited for this chat. Should we get started with some questions?
Sue Larkey [00:04:52]:
Absolutely. Let's dive in deep because I'm all about practical strategies and I know your podcast is too. And look for your podcast listeners. I was just looking at all the amazing topics and support. And I was going, that would be so helpful for this person or that person. So I. I really love that you're using language like navigating, like, all the stuff I love. Like, it's not like, the solution.
Sue Larkey [00:05:15]:
It's all about navigating or what to do or how to help. And I think that's why your community say, you should meet Sue. Cause we're very similar like that. We're not saying, here's one size fits all, here's some stuff to try, some systems to try, but let's just keep trying. Yeah, I love it.
Sharon Collon [00:05:34]:
It's that beautiful, curious mindset that we bring to the table. It's not about, you know, one. Yeah, here is the thing that's going to work. It's. Here are a few things to try, and you get. You get to decide what's going to suit your family. Because ultimately our parents, like, the parents are the best. They know their kids the best.
Sue Larkey [00:05:50]:
Yeah.
Sharon Collon [00:05:51]:
And so they get set aside. Love that. Love that. Now, I want to preface these questions with really saying that, sue, you specialize in autism and au, adhd, and I tend to niche into ADHD quite specifically. And, sue, you tend to work as a teacher in classroom strategies, but also, of course, supporting parents at home, whereas I tend to focus more on the parents and home side of things. So I just want to preface that so people can see that, the different angles that we're coming from as we answer these questions, because I really think it's going to give them maximum value to hear those, you know, having us come together. What do you think about that?
Sue Larkey [00:06:27]:
Absolutely. And look, I always say there's no point me putting in place something in the classroom and it not being backed up at home, or you putting something in at home, and I don't back it up at school. So it is impossible the two don't work together. And it's. You just can't have one without the other. And, you know, I just see it. I'll be honest that when I go into schools and things really aren't working, it is often the breakdown in the relationship between school and home. So this is why I'm so excited we're working together on this podcast today and bringing people that it is possible.
Sue Larkey [00:07:03]:
I want to give people the positivity, what they can create and the relationships. Because, let's face it, some families listening today have their own trauma from school or their own having. I mean, I always say, don't meet in the principal's office. You don't know parents, if teachers say, meet in the principal's office. No, if you had a horrible experience in a principal's office as a kid, you're going to be right back there feeling like a three year old. And that isn't powerful. Then how can you work together if you feel disempowered? So I really want to encourage your parents to be like, okay, how can I step into building a beautiful relationship with the teachers, the school? Because your child will benefit from that.
Sharon Collon [00:07:44]:
Oh, I love that so much about that. Because environment matters, right? So meeting in the principal's office is. And you know, it's even funny as a parent, you know, who obviously does this as a job. When I get negative feedback about my children, I still switch into this defensive mode. And even though I literally do it for a job, like I support things all the time, but when you get negative feedback about your own child, it just hits different. And so having that awareness about it and putting something in place before you get into that room, very helpful because we know that having that collaborative relationship with the school, a positive, collaborative relationship, everyone wins. But when we're against each other, oh, it's really hard to make any headway from there.
Sue Larkey [00:08:26]:
I just want to say it is your job for it to hit hard when it's your child. Like it really is your job as a parent. Your job is to advocate for your child. But, and this, look, people criticize me because I call my students my children and I know they're not my children. But I, when I go to a doctor, I always say to a doctor, if this was your mum or this was your brother, how would you treat it? And when a child is in my class, I always say, if this was my child, how would I want to be spoken to as the parent? If this was my child? And I believe that brings a level of respect to the relationship. Because they're not your child, they're mine, they're ours. You know, and that's, that's just me as a teacher. And some people don't like that because professionally I'm not meant to be like that.
Sue Larkey [00:09:12]:
But that is that heart centered. I cry at the end of every year. I had parents sending me graduation photos of children I taught eight years ago. Because I stay in contact, I build relationships. You can't just have them for a year and oh, off you go. Like that's not how it works.
Sharon Collon [00:09:28]:
Oh, I love that because you know what? Then I really want to drive that point home that our kids are relationship kids. They will Always do more for the teacher that they believe is on their team. And so it's so important as professionals, as we surround our kids with these professionals, that they. That their child perceives that that professional is on their team. And they know. They know when you're faking it. They're so clever, right? We had a teacher last year for my little guy, and she was quite strict, and that was absolutely fine. But she always, like, secretly let him know that he was like.
Sharon Collon [00:10:01]:
Like she was. That she thought he was amazing. So she'd still be going through the same, you know, like, you know, don't sing on share and all of the corrections. But then she'd be like, come on. I'll be like, you know, like. And she was like, did this thing. And he did. He selled for her.
Sharon Collon [00:10:15]:
She had this beautiful way of still teaching the class, still honoring what she had to do, but also, like, giving him a little secret nudge in the background and that, that. That all those things add up. We need to be on their team, right?
Sue Larkey [00:10:28]:
It's as simple as that, Sharon. It's not buying some amazing sensory garden or it's actually just taking a moment. Like I say, when you're on yard duty, hop out. Just go and see what that child's doing. If you've had a bit of a bad morning with them, go and find a moment and check in with them and give them a little bit of praise. Like, find a moment. You can all find those moments. And you know what? In my marriage, we have ups and downs.
Sue Larkey [00:10:54]:
You have ups and downs with kids. It's not a perfect day with a child or with my own children, but you can always rebuild those relationships. And I just think, one little hint for your listeners and for mine, it has to be four positives to one negative. Only way to build a good relationship is four positives to one negative. You don't want someone following you around or going, do this, do that, pick up this, pick up that. Right? But you have to give four positives. So, families, if you're in a meeting, you've got to go, look, this, this, this, and this is going so well. Couldn't be happier, but could we work on this? But if you walk in going, here's a problem, here's a problem, here's a problem, here's a problem.
Sue Larkey [00:11:35]:
Oh, and by the way, I like the way he went on campus. No, you've got to start with the positives and then get to what, what the negative. And it's the same for the children. You have to find the four positives for every negative.
Sharon Collon [00:11:49]:
It's interesting that you say that, because we've been doing a bit of an experiment here. I was. I hope you don't mind me sharing this, but I was listening when. When I yell out for my kids, they ignore me, right? And when my husband yells out, they all answer, which is fascinating to me, but he has novelty because I'm the primary caregiver. And so what I started to do is I started to clock when what I was yelling out. And I was always yelling out demands, right? So I'd be like, in a nice way, you know, not making yucky demands. But I'm like, hey, guys, it's time to put your shoes on. We're going in five minutes.
Sharon Collon [00:12:21]:
And all my kids just tuned me out. So what I did is I stopped yelling out demands. I only. I have a rule in the house that I only yell for praise, right? Or for funny things. And so if I need to make a request, I will find them and put my hand on the shoulder, which is really annoying because I have a. I had to walk upstairs to find them, which is not. Not my jam. But it's actually worked a treat.
Sharon Collon [00:12:43]:
Now they're tuning back into my voice because what they had done is just learned not listen to anything mum says, because everything she asks us to do is something that's not cool. So now I yell out. I go, hey, guys. Hey, guys. I love you. Or, hey, guys, hey, guys. You know, like, I just got bitten by a caterpillar the other day. Like, I just yell out random funny things.
Sharon Collon [00:13:01]:
That's what I'm yelling. And. But never ever yelling a request.
Sue Larkey [00:13:05]:
I absolutely love that. Actually, I hate to break it to you. They have done research that has found that autistic children respond better to men than women. And I want you to try this on. So let's go. Okay, so try this on. And teachers who have done my workshops know I talk about this. So the first thing is, men naturally go down the tone.
Sue Larkey [00:13:31]:
My guess is when you were yelling out commands and demands, it wasn't just the demand. Your voice and pitch went up. So as soon as your pitch goes up, for many of my children, they're intuitive, and so they will pick up your own anxiety. So if you're like, five minutes till we need to get out the door, boom. They're not just hearing five minutes, they're hearing stress, right? So women tend to go up a tone. Men go down a tone, okay? So that going down the tone actually is really powerful for my Neurodiverse kids, right, Love it. Then the other thing is women put in too much information, too many words. Guaranteed you weren't like, we're leaving in five minutes, get your shoes on.
Sue Larkey [00:14:13]:
Guaranteed you're like, we're leaving five minutes to go to blah, blah, blah, don't forget your shoes. And on your way downstairs, can you bring any dirty cups? And what the research says is men go slow and low, so they go slower and lower and they don't add in more detail. So we add in words like, remember I told you, blah, blah. That's not helpful actually. Right. So I would love your listeners and mine to check in. But the other thing men do, they naturally give the take up time or the processing time. What we tend to do is we yell upstairs and we go, we're leaving in five minutes, hurry up.
Sue Larkey [00:14:58]:
I said five minutes. And we like, we haven't even given them a minute to take it up. What I think happens in your house now, they hear you coming up the stairs. That is the prep mum's coming to give us. Say something when you touch them. And I think we underestimate the importance of kinesthetic for our neurodiverse. Kids that touch, actually that is creating connection. And I think it's a, it's a bad thing that teachers aren't allowed to touch students anymore because many of our children respond best to gentle guidance and touch.
Sue Larkey [00:15:35]:
If a child's in the middle of a computer game and you say something that can like cause a reaction, like a fight or flight, but a gentle touch on a part of their body that is comfortable for them is a signal to listen. And there's a lot to be said for that. And I just think that if I wrote that in a program, I can tell you a lot of schools are going, oh, you shouldn't be touching them. But actually if that's how a child learns, this is an independent plan. So anyway, sorry, went down there.
Sharon Collon [00:16:06]:
Yes. Yeah, no, that's wonderful.
Sue Larkey [00:16:08]:
There's some research that really backs up what you've worked out. And I call myself a pracademic, which is a practical academic. I work out what works in my classroom and then I go and find the research.
Sharon Collon [00:16:19]:
You know, I've taken it. I love experiments. Like I feel like one day my children are going to write a book about the weird stuff mums made us do. It's not going to be very complimentary, but one of the other things that I've worked out is if I'm trying to talk to the kids and they're not listening because there's all three of them and they're all doing lots of things. If I just do a funny voice, they lock in. And that's been a really cool little takeaway too, like just something that's novelty, something that's a bit different. All of a sudden, out of nowhere, boom, they're in.
Sue Larkey [00:16:49]:
I have to ask. Come on, do one for us.
Sharon Collon [00:16:51]:
No. Come on, come on. I can do a chipmunk voice, but it's just not the right time of the morning for that. But that usually gets a great reaction.
Sue Larkey [00:17:00]:
I love it, I love it, I love it, I love it. For our ADHD children and our children with autism and for anyone, we haven't really explained, but audi, ADHD or autism. ADHD is a new term. You're all going to hear a lot about it in the coming years. And I mean, I'm looking to put a course together, I would say. Again, I have been teaching children with ADHD and autism for 30 years, 35 years. So I have to correct myself now, thanks to my girlfriend. But what I would say is this is we don't talk enough about this group of children's sense of humor.
Sue Larkey [00:17:38]:
And I wish that was on the diagnostic criteria because what I know as a teacher, when I see a child's humor, that tells me they're ready to engage because the higher your anxiety, the lower your ability to take on board a joke and laugh. And so I know I have kids who can be quite humorous, but if they're a little bit anxious, say after lunch. My jokes don't land very well. And not sarcasm. None of my kids handle sarcasm, but you know, a joke or so forth. But I always say as a teacher, when a child shows me their humor, it shows we are connected.
Sharon Collon [00:18:15]:
Yep, yep, Love that. Okay, shall we get to some of our questions? Because I feel like I could talk to you all day. Yeah, so it is, isn't it? So one of our first questions was can you share your journey of what inspired you to focus on autism? And I will say ADHD and your chosen field. So education. What inspired you to start? Sue?
Sue Larkey [00:18:39]:
Well, I had a little boy with my, in my class with autism called Michael, who was what we used to call classic cat autism. So that picture we used to have of autism, we don't really have that picture anymore, but non verbal hand flapping, toe walking, sort of rocking in the corner, or for him it was under a table crying, you know, And I had a class of 25 kids and I loved him so much, but I didn't know what I was doing. And like many and parents, please listen to this bit. If you're distracted, come back to me. Because teachers don't learn beyond what is autism, what is adhd? When you ask a teacher what to do, half of them have never learned about this. And the teachers listening will be nodding their heads going, yes, I'm expected to know what to do in a busy classroom, complex classroom. So parents, I always say if you ask a teacher to do something, ask yourself, could your child do that at a birthday party with 30 children? Because that is the context of a classroom today. A classroom is like a birthday party, stuff hanging down, a whole lot of exciting things happening.
Sue Larkey [00:19:47]:
Could your child focus at that birthday party? Could your child follow? Because it's not realistic to compare to how your child is at home. Because your home is nothing like my classroom and my classroom is nothing like your home, you know, But I think a birthday party is the equivalent of a classroom today. Open plan, busy, blah, blah. So what I would say going back to why I got into autism is because I felt like I was surviving and getting through the day and I honestly felt like I was babysitting. And I still get teary today. That heartache of wanting to teach and having no idea what to do. And for your listeners, no Google, no Google, no Claude, no ChatGPT, no Pinterest, no Instagram, no Facebook. The only books on autism were at universities and they weren't functional books like your functional family.
Sue Larkey [00:20:42]:
They were what is it? Not what to do. And so I spent the last 35 years, every time I have a problem or something like pda, new word came out, right? I do like I learn everything on PDA and then I create a two hour course so that teachers can learn it in two hours and have everything they need at their fingertips to support your children. If you've got a family coming into our classroom, because teachers haven't got that. I spend a hundred hours researching and give teachers. So that's what I try and do is give teachers time savers and teacher assistance, the time savers so they don't have to do all the research when you've got 30 kids in your class.
Sharon Collon [00:21:25]:
I love that, love that so much.
Sue Larkey [00:21:27]:
And sorry, flipping back to you. Yes.
Sharon Collon [00:21:30]:
Yeah. So my story is that I married this most incredible man and he has a really hyperactive presentation of adhd and I fell in love with him for his incredible brain because I just never know what I'm going to, what to expect. He keeps me, Johnny's on My toes. But when I spoke to him about his adhd, it was very much a story of trauma. So he was banned from the classroom because he was aggressive. He never got invited to a birthday party. He had the naughty boy stigma, and he had a really rough time. And so when we went on, we got married and had our kids.
Sharon Collon [00:22:04]:
And I'm looking at my beautiful kids who are very similar in presentation and going, oh, I can't have that trauma repeat itself. I'm just not. I now have to learn everything I can. And obviously that was about, you know, learning formally and inform and informally and experimenting about what could make things easier for us at home. Because I recognized very quickly that we were doing all the things. We're doing all the therapies, we're doing all the diets, all the. Everything that we spent $30,000 in our first year after diagnosis throwing it all at my sons, which is probably going to go in that book that he's going to write about me. Is that what.
Sharon Collon [00:22:37]:
What. Our home life just sucked. Our life was awful. And so we were doing all this stuff, child focus. But it was bigger than that. We had to look after the whole family because we were all burning out. And we needed family systems and didn't matter what they were doing next door or down the street, we needed family systems that worked for our family and anything that could buy us time and capacity. I was all about it because to be there to support your child when you know your child is dysregulated, it's very hard to do that when you're burnt out.
Sharon Collon [00:23:07]:
It's very hard to meet them where they're at. It's very hard to do the psychology strategies. It's very hard to do all of that. You can't access it when you're just so damn tired. So that became the passion of the functional family and training as ADHD coach because I really want. Wanted to be able to help other families like I'd helped mine. And I recognized that need, yeah, 100%.
Sue Larkey [00:23:27]:
And this is what I say. Teachers can't support children unless they feel supported. That's because teachers actually work in isolation a lot of the time. And so I'm trying to be their cheerleader and support person in the background and the same. A classroom is not functional unless the teacher. If a teacher has a day off, I can tell you my autistic children will do payback for a couple of days. So they often won't take a day off because they're worried, blah, blah, blah. And then they get burnt out.
Sue Larkey [00:23:57]:
And then like now the schools are going well, we can't get relief staff so we can't send teachers to training. And it's like, well, the reason the teachers are taking so many days off because they've burnt out. Actually, if you gave them some training, they might actually have the tools and strategies to actually face more days at school and not be so burnt out. Because just like you were burnt out as a parent, teachers are burnt out too. And sadly, most teachers are staying five years and we have lost the plot. Anyway, that's another whole podcast. What I would love, because I'm conscious. How much time can you just give me, like five top tips for home for families.
Sue Larkey [00:24:39]:
What systems have made the biggest difference to your family?
Sharon Collon [00:24:44]:
Oh my gosh, Brain exploding. Okay, so many. So first of all, my top tip is, you know, we know ADHD is genetic, right? So chances are one of the parents has it, one of the grandparents has it. And so one of the things that I really like to do is I like for parents to learn as much as they can about the ADHD brain. Now, when I say that, I do that with very much of a lens of treating your child like they're an individual, because I see this assumption that, oh, no, I have adhd, so my child's going to be like me. Now, that isn't always the case and that can cause a little bit of friction. We really want to honor each person as an individual and we have the saying in ADHD coaching that ADHD doesn't come to the party alone, it brings friends. Right? So we've got comorbidities going on and so we've got to honor the individual.
Sharon Collon [00:25:31]:
And anytime that we're not doing that, I feel like that's where we kind of slip in our strategies. So number one is learn as much as you can about ADHD and also learn about how it presents in your family members because it's all going to be different. And the same would apply, I imagine, for AU adhd. You know, like it's, it's going to be different for the individuals and so we need to honor that. The next one is to very much go for the low hanging fruit. So I like to go for the easiest thing first. Now, what's the easiest thing that we can do in a home environment? The environment. The environment is in your control.
Sharon Collon [00:26:05]:
So we don't. Before we're doing any sort of strategy with child. Today we're going to go for the environment. So create systems and scaffolding in your home to make things a little bit easier. The next one would be to stop making grand announcements. Okay, so I'm so guilty for this. I walk. We might discover a new, like we a new.
Sharon Collon [00:26:27]:
I might buy a new shoe rack or something and I'll walk into my family and go, from now on, we are all going to be the family that uses this shoe rack. And all of my kids with oppositional defiance tendencies will go, well, we're never going to do that ever again. Like that's dream is lost. We don't need more planners, we don't need to buy more things off Etsy. We don't need all new systems. What we need is to go ahead and work things through with our family. We collaborate with them to, to discover the system that's going to work for our family and have that experimental mindset. Okay, we're just going to try this for a little bit.
Sharon Collon [00:27:03]:
We're going to get feedback, we're going to check back in on this system. The next one is to, you know, I know we're talking about systems focus here, but I feel like these points are important to not compare yourself to other families. It is really, really rough when you're comparing yourself stupid social media and you're going, oh, look at them on their holiday and they're just able to do things so easily. That sort of stuff will just rip you apart. We don't need it. And so when we're looking at other families, it's just not important. They're not up against. Every family is so unique and what we need in terms of systems and structure is important.
Sharon Collon [00:27:38]:
So let's talk about, you know, like a rapid fire systems for success kind of thing because we know that what adults bring to me in adult coaching is not what you'd expect. We think that it's going to be like prioritizing things at work and you know, executive function skills at work and things. That's not my experience, to be honest. My experience is that people with adhd, when they're interested in something, excel, okay? So work if they're interested and they have a job that aligns with that, they tend to do very well. But what they come to me with is that laundry, meal planning, you know, keeping track of the 47,000 school notes we're getting and all the sports and all the things like life systems. That's what they, that's what they need. So my biggest tip is for families, and this is my last tip out of the five, is focus your attention on getting systems in place for that because Life skill stuff is what we're not getting taught and it's what causes adults the hiccups later on. They know how to do the stuff they're interested in.
Sharon Collon [00:28:39]:
We know how to do the stuff that our brain is wired to do. It is the life skill, boring, mundane systems that we need those. And how do we discover those systems? Well, we work with our kids. We're never telling. I don't know if you've noticed, of course, you know this. Kids with ADHD hate being told what to do. They hate it. So we never ever go in, make grand announcements and never tell them.
Sharon Collon [00:28:59]:
We're working with them, we're asking them for information. We're working with them, asking them for their ideas. They have the best ideas. And our job as parents is to listen to them.
Sue Larkey [00:29:09]:
I love that. I absolutely love that. So what I've been madly writing down is the equivalent in the classroom. So I'm going to take your five and yes, let's do it. This is how I apply it. So number one, the individual. I always start my workshops. To know someone with autism is not to know autism, like just because you know one child.
Sue Larkey [00:29:28]:
But I love the fact people that they always bring someone else to the party. And that's why I like the word neurodiversity, because neurodiversity honors that. There's probably more than one diagnosis. Now, I hate to break it to your families, but unfortunately in the past many psychologists gave the ADHD and didn't look at the autism. Encourage your families to think that autism's probably at the party in some way and that some of the autism strategies will be incredibly beneficial for you. So just have a, have a little play with that and maybe listen to a couple of my podcasts and I think you would find them quite insightful, like, oh, that's why that, that's why we're doing that. Yeah. So my saying for your number two is change the structure, not the child.
Sue Larkey [00:30:16]:
I always start with what can I do in the environment? What can I do structurally? Because I could spend all day telling a child to bring a pen to class or I could get rid of all those smiggle rubbers in their pencil case that distract them on the way to get their pen. I could get rid of their tote box that looks like a paper mache activity happen in there and maybe just have their book out on their desk. Right. So change the structure. What the child, what are the key things? And parents, can I just ask all of you to try this out? Getting your child to lay out their clothes the night before. Is that kinesthetic like the touch Sharon was talking about? When children lay out their clothes the night before for school, they can't find their shoes and socks in the morning because they're anxious and distracted. If it's all laid out the night before, that's a visual. It actually reminds them where they're going, what they're doing, and it means they're going to be ready quicker for school.
Sue Larkey [00:31:07]:
And if any of you have children with oppositional defiant disorder, I just did a podcast with a mum who. That's one of the structural changes we made. But you can't go from a low demand, high demand task to another high demand task. So getting ready for school is a high demand task. It's exhausting for ADHD kids, right? The planning, the prioritizing. If you go straight from getting ready for school to getting in the car to go to school, you're doing high demand to high demand. You need to put in a five minute low demand task in between. And what she's put in the middle is going outside and playing basketball.
Sue Larkey [00:31:41]:
Suddenly her son is skipping off to school. Just had one little structural change. It's not that hard. But what I love you said is the next one, like, just try it. There'll be people listening. Like, I won't get them off the basketball. No. How is that going to work, Sue? What do you mean laying out their clothes the night for? Or they go, I already lay their clothes out.
Sue Larkey [00:32:03]:
It's not about you laying it out, it's about your child doing it. Because the kinesthetic laying it out now, for teachers, that means putting out the first activity for the next day the night before transition starts the night before. Sharon and I didn't plan this podcast today. We thought about it yesterday. So recognizing that because a lot of children get ADHD paralysis, which is where a future task and children with autism have what's called autistic inertia. Same thing, same strategy. So they get stuck about thinking going to school because they don't know what they're going to do when they get there. But if their Lego's laid out or their book's laid out, there's no problem solving.
Sue Larkey [00:32:47]:
There's nothing to paralyse them. So anyway, I could talk about that for a year. So we'll keep moving. So just try stuff. And I hate to break it to teachers, parents, carers, the strategy doesn't have to work for you. Stop trying to go. It won't work for me. It's not about you.
Sue Larkey [00:33:04]:
What works for the child. Sometimes bizarre stuff works because it's for this child's brain. And I say it's like going shopping. If I'm trying on an outfit, I can assure you my daughter, who's about six size smaller than me, what works for me doesn't work for her. And I don't try and fit into her outfits. And if I did, she'd think that was really weird. So why are you telling me a strategy won't work for you, it has to work for us. I don't want my daughter going out in something that my husband's like, is that an outfit? Did we.
Sue Larkey [00:33:41]:
Are you missing something? Can we send that back? It's got to work for both of you. But to say it has to work for one of you is just not going to happen in my world. And it's the same in the classroom. I have to think, in a busy, complex classroom, how is this going to work for everyone? But I always prioritize that child's needs first. And one of my other favorite sayings is fair. Isn't everybody getting the same thing? Fair. Is everybody getting what they need in order to be successful? So if anyone has the what about the other children? Please understand, if a child is in a wheelchair and needs a ramp, we don't go, oh, well, all the other children will want to ramp. And you know, it doesn't look good being in a wheelchair.
Sue Larkey [00:34:26]:
Like, it's really looking really. No, we need to give the child what they need. Which leads me to your number five about life systems. Whether you're a teacher, a parent, or a carer, my question is always, what is the ramp this child needs? What do they need to access? What do they need to access? What does it look like for them? And I can assure you, if you went down to our local Gillespie hire, they have 100 different walkers, walking sticks, they have 100 different wheelchairs. It isn't one size fits all. And for all of my children, they need ramps. But what we're aiming for is the child can get up the ramp themselves. At first, you might be pushing them, you might be supporting them, but at the end of the day, I want them laying out their own clothes.
Sue Larkey [00:35:18]:
The night before that, they are independent. Just like a child in a wheelchair might be willing themselves or have an app that will say wheelchair that at the end of the day, what are the systems we can put in place? Because what you said, Sharon, when the adults are doing something they love, you don't need systems. How do we find the system, systems they do automatically and love and take on as their own.
Sharon Collon [00:35:44]:
Do you think this is. I just want so many things going through my head. You know, one of the things that I'm always listening out for in coaching is the word should. And when we, when we say this to ourselves, when we say this to our kids, like, he should be able to, like, you know, like, it's this comparison word that's always a red flag for me. And, you know, when we're talking about, you know, what our child is able to access or achieve at that given moment, you know, it's a, it's a massive red flag. Like, I'm just wanting to flag that as, you know, if you, if you catch yourself saying that in your head, a lot of us are including. Not to say it out loud now, but if you catch yourself having those kind of thoughts, it's a real moment to reflect on what that actually means for you.
Sue Larkey [00:36:27]:
Yes. Actually, I forgot your number four, which was the compare. One of the biggest problems I have when I go into schools and I really haven't found an easy way around it. A principal will go, oh, Sharon did really well with a kid with autism last year. So we'll give them a kid again and assume that because they had systems last year, this is a different child. This child needs different ramps, different access. And I'll hear this, oh, they've done your training before. And I'll go, but that was for a different child.
Sue Larkey [00:37:01]:
And I've had a teacher come back 15 years in a row to my face to face course at Sutherland. And every year I'm like, what are you doing here? She goes, I've got different kids this year, Sue. I'm going to hear different things. Or actually, they've had a change in their family situation. So we're getting a lot of behavior. And I haven't had this happen before where a family spit like, you know, like. Or, you know, and I was like, I love that. She's like, I've got a different child.
Sue Larkey [00:37:29]:
And her principal supports her to come. But you will be amazed how many people go, oh, I've done the training. No, no, you did the training listening for a specific child. Now you need to come back and listen again. You know, I always think it's like an outfit. I wear an outfit with different shorts, different pants, different shoes, different hair. Same outfit can look different. It's just that I just think people struggle the most with that.
Sue Larkey [00:37:52]:
The comparison comes into shipping. All kids are the same and they just.
Sharon Collon [00:37:56]:
One thing I did want to touch on here is praise because we know you know how you said like the, the the three. Three positives to one negative. But I think a lot of people are not sure about how to give like praise and they might I hear often oh it makes my child uncomfortable. So I wondering that was.
Sue Larkey [00:38:19]:
Sorry to talk over you but see if you have a kid with PDA or odd. Oh no, I'm not giving praise because then that's now a demand that they have to achieve the same thing again. So this is the most individual thing. Praise is the most individual thing. And also Sharon, if I said to you, Sharon, can you do your best work? What is your best? This is why my children are perfectionists. Because as if it's my best. I as a neurotypical know you mean like give it your best try, do what you can today. But if I said you know, do your best, your best like my personal best like the Olympic style best work.
Sue Larkey [00:39:04]:
You're not going to get anything and you're probably going to get a ripped up worksheet. And I'm sorry, I don't care about your certificate or your praise because you told me to do anyway. I'll let it go. I'll let my horse run away. But just we put so much pressure on children and praise can cause a lot of pressure to my children again calling my and it's hard because we've been taught to praise and neurodiverse children praise is really confusing. What's your experience? What's your experience?
Sharon Collon [00:39:35]:
Well, I think that we can do it well and do it terribly. So I know that say even personal story. One of my children, all of my kids have odd but one of my children is not comfortable with verbal praise. But they are comfortable if they overhear me talking about how good they are. So I often have just fake phone calls to my mum and I just say how to interrupt.
Sue Larkey [00:39:59]:
That is a strategy I use in one of my students and I'm waiting for it to wear out because with odd kids things wear out. I'll be like, just hang on darling, I'm just gonna call your mum. I'm just gonna tell her something. You're not gonna believe what happened. Blah, blah, blah. Okay. Yep. And it's still working.
Sue Larkey [00:40:18]:
And yeah like the people with anyone videoing in my room would think I'm insane. But anyway, sorry, yeah.
Sharon Collon [00:40:24]:
Another one I like is I like hand gestures. My kids are very like they. I just like little. They're just subtle little hand gestures. We have little codes for things. So that when they're on the playground or far away from me, I can catch their attention and do, like, these little hand gestures. And that's actually been good because it's not making a big scene of it. So we do fist pumps a lot and they're quite comfortable with that.
Sharon Collon [00:40:45]:
But the key is finding out there. But, you know, one of the things that I was thinking about a lot over the weekend is, you know, saying, oh, you did such a good job focusing. And I was like, oh, I just feel icky about that. For a kid with adhd, it's kind of saying to a kid in a wheelchair, oh, you did such a good job trying to walk. Like, I just felt like it was a bit icky. Yeah, no.
Sue Larkey [00:41:06]:
The outcome is the reward for our children. Do you remember that? That they are their biggest critic. My autistic children or ADHD kids, they're very good catastrophizers. So they. The outcome, you putting in place the supports for them to achieve a task, whether that's folding it in half, whether it's color coding it for them, whether it's making something small and achievable, and then being able to finish it is the reward. So you putting in place the structures for them to feel completion. Because for many ADHD kids, they're watching everyone else has finished and they haven't finished. That's devastating.
Sue Larkey [00:41:47]:
You can give them all the praise in the world, but they will notice everyone else has finished and they haven't. But if I make the task smaller, achievable, even if I, like, write the first half, and I always say, let an ADHD kid right at the the end, there's nothing more pleasing than writing the end at the end of something. And I might have written 3/4 of it, but they have the pleasure of writing the end. That is the praise. It doesn't need to be praise. The completion is the praise in themselves. Because they don't take false praise.
Sharon Collon [00:42:19]:
They know.
Sue Larkey [00:42:21]:
But hand signals. Oh, my goodness. In my workshop, I go through all my hand signals and teach it to teachers. Because hand signals are so important for Audi ADHD kids because they misread your. If you give them a look, saying, wait, they see, go ahead and talk.
Sharon Collon [00:42:40]:
And we also should mention RSD in here. Like a lot of our kids, you know, they are showing signs of RSD already.
Sue Larkey [00:42:48]:
For my listeners, tell what them RSD is, because I haven't done that yet.
Sharon Collon [00:42:51]:
Oh, okay. So RSD is Rejection, sensitivity, Dysphoria. It is very common for our neurodivergent Kids, it's essentially perceiving rejection, whether real or imaginary. So a good example of it, and this is how I always explain it, is I will text my husband, who has rsd, right? I will text him, and it'll be neutral. I'll perceive the interaction as neutral. Hey, I'm going to be late. Start without me. That is my tone.
Sharon Collon [00:43:15]:
That is what it's intended to be, neutral. He picks it up and reads it, as in with tone, hey, gonna be.
Sue Larkey [00:43:21]:
Like, start without me.
Sharon Collon [00:43:24]:
And that is the easiest way I can explain rsd. He is looking for rejection in the message. And now that we talked about it, we clocked it, he can recognize it. And we've reframed it to radical safety detector. So it's just like their nervous system is heightened, so they're on the lookout for threat. That's what they're there for. And so they can play into that because they're looking past, you know, even though you feel like you're doing praise, they're looking for that little moment, that little glint in your eye where it's not genuine. They're on the lookout.
Sharon Collon [00:43:57]:
Their nervous system is heightened.
Sue Larkey [00:43:59]:
And that's what I'm saying with the tone that when you call upstairs with a demand, they're picking up the rejection. And this is so important, and I am going to do like a podcast on it for my listeners next year because it's just so important and probably being the Audi adhd. And I'm really thinking that has to be part of the course because Audi ADHD kids particularly have this rejection. And look, I mean, people won't like this, but I have actually said to school principals before, does this teacher assistant like this child and the principal go, oh, sort of. They're having trouble building a relationship. I go, move them out. The kid knows, just move that move that this child is completely feeling rejected. The relationship is irreparable.
Sue Larkey [00:44:42]:
Now this kid is so sensitive that they're only with them for a year. Anyway, let's swap it out. It'll be better for everyone because once this child has decided a person hates them and that's what they'll say, they'll go, they hate me, or you are angry with me if you can't fix that quickly. And it keeps going on, this child's not going to do anything for you. Like, they are going to be pushing your buttons because you've rejected them, and so now they're going to reject you back. You know, And I know that's hard to hear, and I know these are Some really good staff who have had this happen to them. But. Or they might.
Sue Larkey [00:45:20]:
Like one of, you know, I've had people having something happening in their personal life, but the child perceived it as about them, is that it's a perception. So, yeah, thank you for touching on that.
Sharon Collon [00:45:32]:
Let's. Do you mind if I just ask you from a. From a teacher perspective, and maybe we can flip this around. But from a teacher's perspective, we've got a child that's struggling in a classroom environment. I'll do the parent perspective. You can do the teacher perspective. What do you want to see from the parents? And we can flip this for mine. What do you want the parents to walk in with for that meeting? Because I feel like this is where a lot of relationships break down.
Sharon Collon [00:46:01]:
So we know that there's going to be a little bit of conflict and we know that there's going to be struggles in the classroom. We know it. Right. We're not sending our kids going, oh, no, they're going to. It's all going to be fine when they get there. So what do you want the parent. What energy do you want the parents to bring to these meetings?
Sue Larkey [00:46:16]:
Okay, I'm hesitating, Sharon, because I'm not the average. I'll be honest. I get a lot of parents that go, I wish you taught my child.
Sharon Collon [00:46:24]:
Yeah, I do.
Sue Larkey [00:46:24]:
I wish that. Right. And so it's very hard for me because I am so. I am biased. I love my families and my kids. I am like, what are we going to do here? Come on. Like, you know, okay, your kid told me it's gonna kill me, whatever. But, like, you know, like, I am not the teacher who's gonna be there going, oh, my goodness, your child can't do.
Sue Larkey [00:46:48]:
So. Okay. So I need to sort of really flip that in my thinking and this. And it's probably a question I need to think more deeply about, I'll be honest. But the first thing, I always start every meeting with people sitting and reflecting on three things that are going well and what are our three biggest challenges? Because I often find what mum thinks isn't going well or what a challenge is isn't always what dad does. And everyone needs a voice at the table in my meetings. So whether it's. If I've got myself, my teacher assistant, I want them to write down three things that are going well and the three biggest challenges.
Sue Larkey [00:47:22]:
Because we need to come to consensus what the challenges are. And I think sometimes I'll have a parent goal. I think this needs to be. And then the other parent, I go, that's not what I thought we'll hear about. Like you'd be amazed even between couples at that. So I find that really positive. I always start with what are three things are going well, what are our three negatives? And then things that need working on, what are our challenges? And then we're going to prioritize what to work on. And I'm a real believer.
Sue Larkey [00:47:49]:
And we can only work on one thing at a time, otherwise we overwhelm the child, the teacher and the parents. So I'm always going to come from more a. I would say to parents, this is come in neutral. It's really hard. Don't come in with a big document, don't send me a 10 page email, just come in neutral. If you don't come in neutral, you won't be listening to me. And teachers get defensive too and it's just not going to go well. So my recommendation is, I hope I've answered that, but come in neutral.
Sue Larkey [00:48:23]:
Come in with your positives in your head, not just your negatives. Because as soon as you come in with the negatives, people are going to pick up on that and they're going to stop listening. And if you really want to advocate for your child, come in middle ground, come in neutral and come in with here are some things that are going well, here are some things we need to change.
Sharon Collon [00:48:42]:
Love that so much, Sue. Now we'll flip it to the parent perspective.
Sue Larkey [00:48:46]:
Right. So tell me.
Sharon Collon [00:48:49]:
So I'm coming in and you know, bear in mind I've gone into a lot of schools. What I want parents to do is what I want from the teacher is I actually want the teacher to regulate first. Okay. So what we're talking about is going to be emotional. It's. I'm going to be as a parent, I am going to be heightened. We're all going to acknowledge that. Because nothing hits you like your own children.
Sharon Collon [00:49:13]:
Even if you know the struggles that your child has in the classroom, even if you know all of the data on adhd, you're going to be very sensitive to any feedback. So for what I need from the teacher is I need the teacher to be quite regulated in that. So when I, when you're talking about your strategy of writing that down, I actually think that's great because it gives everyone a little bit of time to regulate before there's too many words. Because I am going to be on the lookout for threat. Like it's like everyone's RSD is going to click in here and I'M going to be perceiving this as, like, a little bit of an attack, even if I can hold it together. So regulate first, because if I catch a teacher kind of doing that look away, you know, like, oh, like that kind of body language of like, oh, you know, they're just hard to manage in the class. And like that kind of almost like a rolling of the eyes. I'm.
Sharon Collon [00:50:01]:
It's going to be a problem for me to. Also, what I need to. From the teacher is I need to know that they are on my team, that they are actually. That they actually care about my child and the outcome. Because it's really. It's. It's really hard to establish that collaborative relationship with a teacher if you don't perceive that they care about it.
Sue Larkey [00:50:25]:
Right.
Sharon Collon [00:50:25]:
So I need them to know we need to establish that rapport straight away, which is. I love that exercise that you did. The next thing I want the teacher to know is, I will pay for stuff. Okay? So if you need stuff and you need tools, you know, like transition tools, you need bands, you need anything, tell me what it is. Don't try and waste time getting funding for the Department of Education or whatever, I will get it for you. I will do what it is.
Sue Larkey [00:50:52]:
Yes. Love that.
Sharon Collon [00:50:53]:
Because the time is of the essence. And if it's what you need. I care about my child enough, and all my parents do, in my beautiful membership, my beautiful community, we care about it enough that we will do what it takes to give you the tools that you need. The next is when you call me with. When a teacher calls me with feedback, tell me, like, don't just call me for negative feedback. Call me for positive feedback, too. And of course, you know, Right. Like, you are the perfect person for this.
Sharon Collon [00:51:20]:
But, you know, for teachers listening, it's so important. We had a beautiful, beautiful principal, wrote my son a postcard and sent it to us in the mail saying that she was really.
Sue Larkey [00:51:31]:
Yeah.
Sharon Collon [00:51:31]:
And that in itself was such a powerful thing. It didn't have to be verbal praise. It was a little postcard sending, just saying that she's seen, you know, all the effort that he's putting in. He's really trying hard. And, you know, and that had so much weight coming from the principal there. Just those little things make such a big difference.
Sue Larkey [00:51:50]:
Yeah. Well, I think we should finish on that note because I think that is beautiful. And look, this has been a longer podcast, but I think my community would have got a lot of stuff out of this, and I hope yours does, too. So I really appreciate it.
Sharon Collon [00:52:05]:
Sharon thank you sue. That was amazing. Thank you for listening to this episode of the ADHD Families Podcast. If you loved it, please share it on your socials. I want this to start a conversation about adhd. If you want to make this mum do a little happy dance, please leave a review on itunes. If you would like to know more about what we do, check out thefunctionalfamily.com I truly hope that you enjoyed this podcast and you use it to create a wonderful, effective, joyful to life with your beautiful chips.
