Karen Young [00:00:00]:
So anxiety is a felt sense of threat. So it can happen. It's a really normal response. We don't want to get rid of anxiety. We can't. So anxiety is the thing that keeps us away from danger. But because the brain can't tell the difference between true danger and something that feels like danger, and the things that will feel like danger to the brain, they're usually relational. So anything that comes with any risk at all of humiliation, judgment, failure, school's full of them.
Karen Young [00:00:26]:
Even if it's not likely to happen, the brain doesn't care. It's a just in case machine.
Sharon Collon [00:00:31]:
Welcome to the ADHD Families podcast. I'm your host, Sharon Collin, an award winning credentialed ADHD coach and consultant and mama and wife to a very ADHD family. I am seriously obsessed with making life easier for people with ADHD and those that support them. My business, the functional family, provides life changing support and strategies for ADHD. I particularly love anything that saves time, decreases conflict, and create space for fun. Do you want a life with your beautiful family that is more functional, fun, and full of joy? Let's explore together the wonderful and sometimes wacky world of family life with ADHD in the mix. Welcome to another episode of the ADHD Families podcast. I'm your host, Sharon Collin, and I am so happy you are here today.
Sharon Collon [00:01:25]:
We have such a great episode for you. You are going to love this, and I know that you're going to love it because I see all the questions coming through on the Facebook group and this is going to answer a lot of them for you. We're talking about anxiety. We know that underneath ADHD there is a huge base note of anxiety, but we're often a little bit lost about what to do about it. Do we talk it through with our kids? Do we shut it down? It's all a bit confusing for parents and so we're going to talk about that today. We're also going to talk about school refusal or school can't and ways to support our kids with that. So I have brought in the incredible Karen Young. She is an expert in this area.
Sharon Collon [00:02:10]:
She has the website hey Sigmund. And she is a very sought after speaker and psychologist. And I actually saw her speak recently at the resilient Kids conference and I was blown away by how she broke down these concepts and explained what is going on inside our brains when we're having anxiety. Now, she is the author of five books, including the best selling Hay Warrior, which I absolutely recommend that you read and gives us really beautiful practical strategies on how to support our kids with ADHD and anxiety. Let's get to it. Welcome, Karen. I'm so excited for our chat today.
Karen Young [00:02:48]:
Oh, thank you so much for having me. I'm so happy to be here with you.
Sharon Collon [00:02:53]:
So tell me a little bit about your background and what inspired you to start. Hey, Sigmund.
Karen Young [00:02:59]:
Yeah. So I started as a psychologist in private practice, and I realized really quickly that where the magic is for young people is with their important adults. So I moved reasonably quickly into supporting the adults that support. Supporting the adults who support children, parents, carers, teachers, if we can get the information into their hands, because they're with kids all the time, they're on the front line when the big things happen. So that's kind of where I came to be in the work that I'm in now, and I love it. I'm really grateful to be here now.
Sharon Collon [00:03:39]:
I watched you on stage recently at the resilient Kids conference, and I was so in awe with how you broke down the big concepts of the brain, you know, the amygdala, like, what was going on inside the brain. And I just loved hearing you break that down in a really palatable way. It was a real. It was really amazing to watch. I do want you to explain that a little bit to people who are listening, but before we do that, can you tell me what led you to focus specifically on anxiety and mental health in children and adolescents? What drove you to that?
Karen Young [00:04:11]:
Well, it probably started with my own daughter, who at the time was having anxiety, and I realized that. And anyone who works with kids would probably appreciate, you can be really good with other people's kids. I've worked a lot with other people's kids with anxiety. I knew what I was doing, but when it's your own, it's different because they're just not as receptive all the time to the things that you say. So I had to. It really spoke to me, the helplessness that we feel as parents. I knew this stuff, I did this work and I felt an incredible sense of helplessness. So that's where I really launched into this work, especially around anxiety, when things become personal and realised that we needed a different way to work with this and to talk about this and have the conversations and the strategies and to build their capacity, move through anxiety.
Karen Young [00:05:11]:
That's where the real power is. So that's where I kind of came into this work big time, especially around anxiety, when it got personal.
Sharon Collon [00:05:19]:
Yes. I love that. So many great things come out from parents who are going through the struggles. That's how our business started as well.
Karen Young [00:05:29]:
That's it, yeah, because you really do see it from all angles. And you're seeing what it looks like at 02:00 a.m. and you're seeing what it looks like at 08:00 a.m. and it's really, even as a psychologist, I would have kids for maybe 45 minutes a week if I was lucky. Our parents have got kids all the time, so that's a really powerful and very privileged place to be in. But it's, how do we work with this? How do we support our kids? We're not therapists. I was a psychologist, but I'm not her psychologist, I'm her mum. So how do we work with that? Teachers.
Karen Young [00:06:09]:
I see teachers and they have a profound capacity to support kids through anxiety. And how do we do that? How do we do that? So that's where I. That's why I love this work so much, because we're really widening the wrap around for kids, widening the village of people who can lean into this with them.
Sharon Collon [00:06:33]:
Love this. Okay, so can you tell me or can you explain to our listener what anxiety is? I would love if you could break down what's happening in the brain.
Karen Young [00:06:45]:
So anxiety is a felt sense of threat. So it can happen. It's a really normal response. We don't want to get rid of anxiety. We can't. So anxiety is the thing that keeps us away from danger. But because the brain can't tell the difference between true danger and something that feels like danger, and the things that will feel like danger to the brain, they're usually relational. So anything that comes with any risk at all of humiliation, judgment, failure, school's full of them.
Karen Young [00:07:11]:
Even if it's not likely to happen, the brain doesn't care. It's a just in case machine. So that all counts as threat to a beautiful brain that is doing exactly what brains meant to do, which is look after us. So that felt threat, when the brain perceives threat and then it organizes the body to respond, that's anxiety, it's the felt sense of danger. And this is why we have to say, you know, one of the really important things around understanding, this is the exact feeling that happens when we're in actual danger. The response from the brain is exactly the same as it is when we're doing something that will potentially bring those felt psychological threats. Anytime we do something brave, new, hard, something important to us, it's going to be full of those things that are going to be read by the brain as threat, we might stuff it up, we might miss out on something, we might be rejected, humiliated. Probably not.
Karen Young [00:08:10]:
And even if we are, we'll handle that. But the brain can't tell the difference. So anxiety is a brain that doesn't feel safe and a body getting ready to respond respond with fight, flight or shutdown.
Sharon Collon [00:08:21]:
So tell me a little bit more about that. Like, you know, we know that the term amygdala gets thrown around an awful lot. Tell me what that what's actually going on inside the brain during these times when we're about to go into fight or flight?
Karen Young [00:08:34]:
So the amygdala is the brain's threat sensor. So it's the part of the brain that is scanning and looking for signs of danger. So it doesn't mean there is danger, it means there might be danger. And that's the amygdala. So we really want to make anxiety friendly. We want to embrace it. We don't want to present anxiety as something to be avoided because we can't avoid it. You know, think of something you've done that was important to you, you would have been anxious before it.
Karen Young [00:09:04]:
And one of the ways I work with anxiety, it's why I wrote her warrior, is presenting the neuroscience around anxiety in a really friendly way. Your amygdala is there to look after you, it's there to take care of you. So you want to move away from presenting anxiety as a bully or deficiency or a disorder, as breakage, because we can't get rid of it. Where we want to position kids is recognising. They can feel anxious and do brave, they can feel anxious and move forward. So it's a moving with rather than a getting rid of. But to do that, we have to make anxiety be withable and friendly. And one of the ways we can do that is by helping kids understand what's happening in their brains and bodies.
Karen Young [00:09:47]:
I like that.
Sharon Collon [00:09:48]:
Okay, so tell me a little bit about what are some common misconceptions about anxiety that parents should be aware of?
Karen Young [00:09:56]:
So the big one is that it's a sign, it's a disorder or it's breakage. It's not. Anxiety is not a disorder any more than angry, sad, confused, curious is a disorder. Anxiety is a feeling, it's a really normal human response. Generalized anxiety disorder is the disorder. Anxiety is not a disorder. So what we want to do, the more we present and talk about anxiety as a disorder, what we're actually doing is presenting anxiety as something to be avoided. So inadvertently, we're actually steering kids away from the things that drive anxiety, which are going to be those growthful, grave.
Karen Young [00:10:40]:
You do something new, you try something out for the first time, you're going to get anxious because it's new, it's hard, it's something important. If we. Of course we're going to get anxious about it. So we want to avoid talking about anxiety as something to be avoided. So rather than, oh, my goodness, you've got anxiety. We need to sort that out. What we want to do is lean right into it. Of course you've got anxiety.
Karen Young [00:11:04]:
You're doing something big here. Of course you've got anxiety. This is new. You've been on a break from school. We haven't been there for all. Of course you're going to feel anxious about it and really welcome it in. So that's where we want to. That's probably one of the biggest things.
Karen Young [00:11:19]:
We want to avoid leaning into it.
Sharon Collon [00:11:21]:
Rather than, you know, like, I don't know about you, but, like, in my generation, when we were young, we're like, oh, just get over it. Like, oh, you'll be right. You'll be right.
Karen Young [00:11:29]:
Yeah, yeah. We don't need to get over it. We don't need to get over it because it's nothing. There's nothing to get over there. It's not. We're not broken. It's a really normal thing that we feel and it's okay to feel it.
Sharon Collon [00:11:41]:
So I've got a little example now. So we know that the ADHD brain is a fast brain and it often is a very, very anxious brain. And sometimes we get stuck in these kind of obsessive thought loops, right? So whether they, you know, they are essentially anxiety, but they loop constantly and our kids will come to us saying something like, you know, like, my. My brain is telling me that I need to put my hand in the fire and like that, you know, like. Or something like that, you know, like, that's a pretty extreme example, but it does happen and it just loops and loops and loops. What can we do to calm that situation and respond to that anxiety, like, whilst, you know, really honoring that and leaning into it?
Karen Young [00:12:22]:
So our job as parents isn't to remove the discomfort of anxiety. Our job is to give kids the experiences they need to recognise they can handle that discomfort. So one of the mistakes we can make as parents is over reassurance. Oh, no, but you'll be okay. Oh, no, but, you know, we keep. Or we keep fixing them, we keep trying to talk them out of the anxiety. We keep trying to reassure them. The problem with that.
Karen Young [00:12:49]:
And every loving parent will do that. There's a big drive to do that. But the problem with that is every time we do that, what we're actually confirming is the only way you can feel safe is when I'm reassuring you or when I'm telling you this thing. So what we want to do is steer them to their own internal resources. We might say, yeah, I can see that you've got this. You know your brain keeps telling you this stuff, right? I know you know the answer because I've put them there. Do you remember what we talked about? And then just go back to it. And that might be the line because the more you answer, it's not going to stop them.
Karen Young [00:13:28]:
First of all, there's nothing you can say that they don't already know because you've probably already said it. Lots. Wait till they've made their emotional point. So let them talk. Let them talk. Let them do what they need to do. Once they've made the emotional point, then you say, so it sounds like you're really worried that feed it back to them. Yeah, that's big, right? Make valid their feelings.
Karen Young [00:13:50]:
I'm not surprised you feel anxious about that. If I would feel anxious if I was thinking that that makes so much sense to me. Make valid their belief doesn't mean you agree with it. What we're saying is, I get it. Of course you're going to feel like this. You're not broken, there's nothing wrong with you. And then we can either just leave it or we might say something like, well, here's what I think. I think this.
Karen Young [00:14:13]:
So you're not talking them out of it, you're making space for it. Then you are coming in with strength. I know you're going to be okay in this and it depends on what the situation is. Then when they keep coming, coming, you say, I know this is big, my darling. I get it, I get it. Do you remember what we talked about? I know the answers are in you. You don't need to keep talking because you've already put the answers there. And the more we talk, the more the brain hears that.
Karen Young [00:14:46]:
The only way I can feel safe is when you're doing this. So they're not steering to their own internal resources. That's what we want them to do. That discomfort is okay. It's absolutely okay. Because what's going to happen is they will get to the end of that and realize, okay, I survived that one. Tomorrow it might be worse and I can survive it, but they're not going to get that, if we keep being the one to fix it for them. So be there with a loving, strong presence so they don't feel alone in it.
Karen Young [00:15:19]:
That's the important thing. And steer them to their own internal answers. Doesn't mean they're going to find them straight away. It's a process, and you know that. We get stuck in loops. We all get stuck in loops. And having someone try and talk us out of that loop never helps. It never helps.
Karen Young [00:15:35]:
It feels like it's something they're saying because they can't handle our discomfort. What we're looking for is to send the message, which is, I can handle your anxiety. I don't need to jump you out of this right now, because I can be. Even if inside, we can't handle it. And it is. It gets really distressing on the outside. The message we want to send is, I can handle all of your anxiety. I don't need to change you.
Karen Young [00:15:59]:
I don't need to fix you. You're not broken. We'll get through this together.
Sharon Collon [00:16:04]:
One of my gps once said to me when I was talking to him about my kids anxiety, he's like, anxiety is so variable in the way that it doesn't necessarily make sense for other people to understand it. So, like, we can think, oh, you know, that person might not have anxiety. Like, they don't have anything to worry about. Like, we discount what their journey is. But he said, like, he goes, I have old ladies that have severe anxiety about going to the letterbox. You know, they feel like they might fall. They might, you know, he said, whereas we do that every day without even thinking about it. So it's so, you know, personal to that person, what they're worried about and what they have anxiety about.
Karen Young [00:16:46]:
The thing is, we don't always know where the anxiety is coming from because we don't always know what has upset the amygdala. It could be something that happened three years ago that it's remembering. It could be a smell that reminds it of something really emotional that happened ten years ago. We don't always know. So trying to get to the bottom of the anxiety is sometimes a really futile task, because it could be that. The example I often give is if, when a child was really young, they went into the doctor's surgery. The doctor's surgery was full of lavender, because lavender's meant to be calming for the brain. But then this little one got a jab, a needle.
Karen Young [00:17:29]:
The amygdala will grab every sensory part of that experience. What I felt, what I heard what I smelt, what I tasted, what I saw and lock it into, and it's not safe. So then it might be six or seven years later, that child is walking into school and the garden's full of lavender. The smell will hit the amygdala. The amygdala will go, wait, that smell, that reminds me of the time that I got hurt. I'm pretty sure I'm about to be hurt. And it will run a full fight flight response. It looks like school anxiety and it will end up that way.
Karen Young [00:17:58]:
But if we could ask the amygdala, the amygdala would go to school. I don't even know what school is. No, it's that smell of lavender that I don't like. So we don't need to always get to the bottom of it. Could be something they heard in the news, something that's happening to someone else. It happens below awareness. We're not always aware of it. If we had a car accident, at a point that a song was playing, we might not remember the song that was playing at the time, but our brain will remember everything.
Karen Young [00:18:23]:
So it happens below awareness. Then we hear that song and we just get this uneasy feeling inside. So we don't always know what it's. Why we might look at someone, they might remind us of something, and we just get a bit of a jup of someone. A jarring smells do it. So one of the things I say is, we don't want to chase too hard with the cause. Be curious. I wonder if you know where this is coming from.
Karen Young [00:18:45]:
But if they don't, if we chase too hard, that can actually drive anxiety about the anxiety. Are you being bullied? Are you worried about school? Is it your friends? What is it? What can happen in them is they can say, well, I don't know where this feeling is coming from. You're the adult. You're meant to be okay with this stuff. But I'm getting a sense you're not okay with this. So maybe I'm in a bit of trouble here. So what we need to do is give them the message that it's love and leadership. I'm not worried about this.
Karen Young [00:19:13]:
I can see you are. I don't need to talk you out of it. I wonder if you know what's upset you, where this feeling is coming from. That's okay. We don't always know where these feelings come from. We're just gonna move with it anyway. That's okay. So you just.
Karen Young [00:19:27]:
We don't need to know the reason because we don't always know the reason, and the reason isn't, well, it's important if it's something we can address, but otherwise, you know, if there is something we can fix, but we don't always know what it is, so be curious. But if they don't know, let it go.
Sharon Collon [00:19:44]:
So this is a great segue to that. A lot of our beautiful kids in our community have school calm, right? This is a big topic in the ADHD world, school. And when I work with adults with ADHD as well, often they describe school as the hardest time in their life. And it can be really, really traumatic for our gorgeous kids with ADHD. So is there any strategies that you have that we can put in our tool belt to support our kids at school?
Karen Young [00:20:14]:
So the biggest thing is coming at this with a posture of capability, so even the word school can't. We're sending a really clear message that we don't believe in them. There is no way. So one of the things I say here is, as parents, we need to decide, are they safe and loved at school? Maybe they aren't. Maybe you don't believe that and maybe you've got really good reason to believe that. If you don't believe that, there is no way that child is going to feel safe at school. There is no way. So the question isn't, how do I get them to school? The first question is, what do I need to do so that I feel okay about them being at school? We often make the mistake of trying to make the kids do the brave thing first or the hard thing first, but we've got to go first.
Karen Young [00:21:01]:
So I really want to validate that for some parents, they genuinely don't believe their kids are safe and loved at school. The schools I go into, I know that they work really hard to make kids feel safe and loved. I know not all schools are there. I'm probably not getting asked into those schools because, you know, the schools that are asking me in are aware of where I come from, but I know there are schools that do that now for parents, I say, what do you need to feel confident that they're safe and cared for at school? They might not feel safe and cared for, but feeling and being is different. So recognize they might not feel like this will park that. What do you need to do to know that they are actually safe and cared for there? Do you need to talk to school? Do you need to facilitate a relationship between them and another adult at school? Do you need to understand what happens when you go or how any big behavior is being responded to. What do you need? And it's absolutely okay to need that because unless you get what you need in that sense, your child is not going to feel safe now. Then we might say, okay, yeah, I'm a parent, they go to this school.
Karen Young [00:22:18]:
The school is beautiful. I know they're so safe and loved there, but they don't feel like that. So then we say, okay, what we need to do is come at this with this in charge energy of I know you are safe there and I know this is the right thing. So it's, I believe you that this feels big and I believe in you that you can do this, that you can move there. So the first thing I say is make that decision. Are they safe and loved? If they aren't, what do you need to do to get them there? What do you need to do to feel that? And if they are, how do we give them this message? So one of the problems with anxiety driven school avoidance is when they're actually avoiding school. If we're picking them up early, if we're not sending them, if, and you know, if they're 13, you can't just pick up a 13 year old and put them in the car and send them to school. Right.
Karen Young [00:23:12]:
If they're at home and we're making screens available or making a special lunch for them or. Which is all what loving parents absolutely will do. Absolutely. Like every loving parent does this. But the problem is we're sending a message that you're better at home than at school or it's better for you to be at home on a school day than at school on a school day. So the message with everything we do needs to be, well, that's okay. We're going to wait here until you get out of the car. I know it feels too big right now and I'm going to wait until you're ready and we might need to wait a while.
Karen Young [00:23:51]:
So it does get in the way. I want to validate that, but as much as we can, you want to avoid wherever you can. Not sending them or picking them up early or driving home because that's what's sending a message, that maybe you're better at home. It's tricky. It's tricky. None of this is easy. I want to say that, but if they aren't safe at school, what do we need to do? Do we need to put in sensory things and work with school? Do we need to facilitate a relationship between the, the child and another important adult at school? So there is an adult there who they feel safe with and loved by what needs to happen to make that environment safe. So it's environmental and relational.
Karen Young [00:24:33]:
As long as the environment is safe enough, they've got that relational safety there. They might not feel it, but if it's there, then with everything we can, we need to move them forward and avoid, you know, pulling them back from that. It will be, there will be really big distress. But what I also want to say to parents is the distress won't hurt them. It's feeling alone in distress that hurts kids. So that's why I say setting up that relational safety is really important and making sure there is another adult there who can receive them, who we can deliver them to. Consistent, predictable, every day. If that's not there, then it's going to be tricky for them.
Karen Young [00:25:16]:
So that might be where the work is. Can someone in school, who can I deliver them to every day? The one adult. So there's a few little levers we can work with, but I really want to validate that for some parents will have a reason to. If that relational safety, if that adult isn't there at school, who can receive that child or who we can deliver the child to, it's just not going to feel safe for them.
Sharon Collon [00:25:42]:
So I've got a question. I've got, well, I've got two questions about this because it's really exciting to hear you talk about that. And I love the part about the parent deciding first by checking in and deciding first. A lot of our kids, when they are overwhelmed at school, they go to sickbag because anxiety has some physical symptoms. And so I've got two questions. Number one, can you list out what those physical symptoms are so parents can be aware? And then also, what do we do when our kids go to sickbay? Because for some kids, it's like every day that they're going to sick bay.
Karen Young [00:26:16]:
So the big ones are going to be a sore tummy and a sick tummy, sometimes even vomiting. That's all a really natural part of the fight flight response. It's a shutdown in digestion. And anxiety can also make the tummy muscles contract, so it can really hurt. So a sick tummy and a sore tummy are really common symptoms with anxiety. Now, of course, we need to get this checked out, make sure there's nothing else going on. But look for the pattern. Look for the pattern.
Karen Young [00:26:44]:
So if it's only happening at school, but it doesn't really happen at home, or it happens at school, you pick them up, you bring them home, and they're bouncing off the walls. They're not making it up. It doesn't mean they're making it up. It's because they don't have the anxiety at home, they have it at school. Then they get the symptoms of anxiety. Sick tummy, sore tummy. Really common symptom of anxiety. Now, there's nothing in any loving adult that feels okay about leaving a child with a sick tummy or a sore tummy at school.
Karen Young [00:27:08]:
But if it's anxiety, that's what we need to do, because we don't want to support avoidance. Avoidance is the worst thing for anxiety. One of the things that happens if you pick them up every day, you know, and you'll do it a couple of times while you're figuring it out and trying to get a sense of, is this actually, is something going on physiologically, or is this anxiety? But once you've figured it out, if you keep picking them up when they have a sick tummy or sore tummy, I want to be really clear. They're not doing it to manipulate. This is not an intentional thing. Absolutely not. It's anxiety. But what happens is, when you take them home, the brain registers safety, but it also associates safety with not being at school, with not doing this thing.
Karen Young [00:27:50]:
So it catastrophizes school. So tomorrow. So the brain says, okay, well, tomorrow when they send you to, we're calm and safe now, but only because we didn't go to school. So tomorrow when they try and make you go to school, I'm going to surge you with even more fight flight fuel. So they'll get sicker, they'll get sorer tummies. Anxiety tends to get worse before it gets better. So this is why teaching them the neuroscience of anxiety and the physiology of anxiety can be really important and understanding that, because then we've got another story. Because instinctively, the story they put to it is there's something wrong with them.
Karen Young [00:28:26]:
School puts that story to it. Understandably, we put that story to it. There's something wrong with them. There is another story, and it's, this isn't happening because there's something wrong with you. It's happening because you're doing something tricky. There's something that feels big for your brain right now, and that's okay. We don't need to fix it. It's anxiety.
Karen Young [00:28:47]:
And this is what anxiety looks like sometimes, and you're safe and you're okay.
Sharon Collon [00:28:52]:
So when we get the call from the office lady at school, what do we say to the office lady?
Karen Young [00:28:58]:
So what I do is have a conversation with school first and say we've had these tummy aches checked out, or the sore tummy, whatever they are, the sick tummy, we've had them checked out. There's nothing physiologically there. So you know, it's not a tummy bug. You know, it's not, you know. And the other clue is when they come home, they're actually okay. So there's no sick tummy or sore tummy. So we can be really confident, because if it's actually something, it's not going to change at home. They're still going to be sick and sore at home.
Karen Young [00:29:28]:
But if they're not sick and sore at home, then it's anxiety, most likely. So we say we're really confident that it's anxiety. So what we'd like to do is work with you to support them through this feeling. And you're waiting for the storm to run out of rain, effectively what you're doing. So what might this look like? It might look like maybe they go to sick bay for ten minutes, have someone, you know, just want to move them through it so they're alone. So there might be someone saying something like, yeah, feels big. Hey, do you remember what we talked about, about anxiety and what happens in your brain and body? Well, we think that's happening now. And strong, steady breathing switches it off.
Karen Young [00:30:15]:
Movement switches it off. So the opposite things to when they're in Sick Bay, they're not moving. But that superbody, that neurochemical fuel, that flight fuel is building up, it's going to make them feel worse. So sometimes a walk outside can help to neutralize that fight flight fuel. Some slow breathing, listening to music, rhythm can all help bring them back to calm and then go back to class. We know this is tricky and we actually know you're safe. You're safe. That's the big thing.
Karen Young [00:30:51]:
But the important thing is making sure there's someone there who can, you know, who can support them through it and work with school on it. Work with school. This is why it's so important that we understand this neurophysiology of anxiety. And they understand it. They understand what's happening in their brain and body, so they don't, because otherwise the symptoms of anxiety will continue to drive anxiety, because it looks like something's wrong. But we want to put another story to it. There's nothing wrong with me. I feel like this because anxiety shut down my digestion.
Karen Young [00:31:23]:
That's a normal part of anxiety. It shuts it down so it can use that energy to fight or flee if it needs to, but in the process, that can feel awfully, can feel like a sick tummy or a sore tummy. So understanding the new. And this is why I wrote hay warrior, because I just believe, I really believe that it's going to be really difficult to support kids through anxiety until we make sense of the symptoms, until we tell them what's happening in their brains and bodies with it.
Sharon Collon [00:31:53]:
And, you know, it's up to. I guess what I'm thinking of here is the concept of gating for ADHD. So we have this sort of phenomenon that's going on that we're having big behaviors and those things with ADHD are big and sometimes disruptive. And so then we get calls from the school saying, you know, they can only be here for an hour a day and we only want them here for this time and you've got to come and pick them up for recess and they can't come on Wednesdays because that's sports day and it's too disruptive. And, like, we get gated out and what that does is tells our child that they're not welcome with their big behaviours. But also it stops parents from being able to be employed and all sorts of things, but it also reinforces the anxiety that they're not safe at school because anytime you have something big and disruptive, you're going to be gated out, the gate shuts for you. And, you know, this is the crazy part of what we are handling here as parents and, you know, because schools are like, we don't have the resources to deal with this and so we're going to get you out. And I know a lot of parents are struggling with this and it's just reinforcing this thing of what you're saying, that it's reinforcing anxiety that you're not safe here.
Sharon Collon [00:33:06]:
There's not a seat at the table for you here.
Karen Young [00:33:09]:
Yeah. And one of the things I do is work with schools on this, because that is. It is. It doesn't work. It actually makes the problem worse, because one of the things that brains need to feel safe is they need to feel welcome. And when you send a child away, what you're saying is you're not welcome. So they will put a lid on it as much as they can. But what you've got now is a child that doesn't feel welcome.
Karen Young [00:33:33]:
That is there going. I really don't want to go into my big behavior, but what if I do? And what if they keep me? And so their anxiety is rising, rising, rising. There is no child does this because they want to. There is no such thing as willful bad behavior. So this is where I go to. Rather than asking the child to do something different, we have to look at the adults in the room and go, okay, what can you do to help lead this child out of this situation, rather than sending the child away and have them responsible for putting a lid on it? The reason they go into big behaviour is because when the amygdala charges up, when there's felt threat, it's the most impulsive part of the brain. It only cares about the next 15 seconds, so you can have all the consequences you want. And this is why schools go.
Karen Young [00:34:25]:
But how are we going to teach them? Because if they don't feel bad, they can't, you know, it doesn't work. Because in that moment, the amygdala doesn't care about consequences, it only cares about the next 15 seconds. These kids don't want to be doing this. Now, the schools that, the schools I work with, they're on top of this, they recognise it and there's other things we can do. So I know sometimes schools have to make. And, you know, this priority of school is making sure that everybody's bodies are safe, but there's ways to do that. And if a child does need a break, it has to be presented as, you know, school's big today. What we want you to do is we want you to have a break.
Karen Young [00:35:06]:
We miss you so much when you're not here. We can't wait to have you back tomorrow rather than you've got to go away. And when you're more convenient and acceptable, then you can come back in. Even as adults, you know what we do? We go, I actually don't want to be around you because that's awful. That is awful. And we talk about making things relationally safe between peers. We've got to make things relationally safe between the grownups and the kids as well. There is a way to do it.
Karen Young [00:35:34]:
And I also want to acknowledge for any teachers, listening, teachers have their hands full. We ask way too much of our teachers, we really do. And our schools, we really are. And they're dealing with so many things. But what we want to do is hold the boundary, but add the relationship, hold the boundary, add the love, add the warmth. What I see too many times is the boundary is held. You can't hurt their bodies, but it's done in a way that feels cold and actually a way that's cruel. Excluding kids, sending them away in a way which sends the message, you're not acceptable to us when you do this, it just doesn't work.
Karen Young [00:36:13]:
And it's misinformed. It's old information, it's old ways. We've moved on from that. Now, we know that doesn't work that way, and it just makes things worse. So if there is some sense of separation that's needed in order to keep people safe, we, and that is very much a last resort. What I say is, well, proactively, what can we do to bring in signs of safety for this brain, rather than waiting for it to get to this point, is that are there signs of safety we can bring in? Are there signs of danger? So you look at the whole thing and is there a way we can proactively get to this? Well, I'll tell you now, if a child is coming in to school and they've been sent home yesterday or last week, you got a brain that's about to go because they know that you imagine going into work when you've been sent away from work because you're not acceptable. You're going to come in here and you're going to be putting a lid on it. Now, we have brains that can actually self regulate.
Karen Young [00:37:09]:
They don't. Kids don't. So the very thing they're scared of going big again. They don't want to go big. They don't want to be known as the naughty kid. They don't want to be sent away. And the anxiety around that is actually going to pique them. So the very thing we're trying to do, we're actually feeding it, we're fueling it.
Karen Young [00:37:27]:
So, for sure, schools have to keep everybody safe, but we add warmth to that. We really want you here. We really do, buddy. How about you have a little break because it's big, right? It gets big. You're doing some big stuff today, mate. And then we want you back. We can't wait to see you tomorrow. We want you back.
Karen Young [00:37:45]:
Are you okay if I give mum a call this afternoon just to check on how you're doing? Because we miss you when you're not here. That's the posture we want to take. Then you've got a child who's coming to school feeling welcome, feeling like they belong, and feeling safe enough. Safe enough. That's where we want to get to.
Sharon Collon [00:38:02]:
I love that, what you're saying there is. It's repairable, right? So we had a situation with my little guy this year where the teacher said to me in front of him, which I wasn't impressed about, he's the most difficult to handle in the class.
Karen Young [00:38:15]:
Right?
Sharon Collon [00:38:16]:
And so because she said that in front of him, I watched his little head drop. Right. And then he had nothing to lose from that point. So every time he was in that class, he was, you know, he was his worst self in terms of behavior, when I know he can do so much more. And so what we did is we had a meeting. We talked about relationship repair. Luckily, the teacher is very on board with that. And we've just lowered demands and got created lots of opportunity for connection and rewarding, giving him extra jobs, making him feel really special.
Sharon Collon [00:38:47]:
And now he is doing so well in that class, and they were able to repair it. So one little slip of relationship, like, it just shows how important that connection piece is. One little slip could have had the ability to make this a horrid year, and it really could have been, but they were able to work through it and repair, which I'm super proud of, but it wouldn't have happened had we not had that meeting and gone in there and talked about what he needed to succeed.
Karen Young [00:39:16]:
And this is where I loop back to. If you don't believe they're safe and loved, they have to be the loved as well. The relational safety, what needs to happen to do it. So teachers are human, right? And I want to say I love teachers. They do so much, and they're such an important part of our village. Teachers are human, too, and there is stuff that hasn't trickled through to schools yet. So schools are, a lot of schools are still working with old school ways that we know don't work anymore that should have been kicked out a long time ago, but it hasn't filtered through yet. So there's new research, new information, new ways of doing things, and we have to jump on board.
Karen Young [00:40:01]:
So this is where I loop back to exactly, and I think the questions we need to ask teachers, schools, okay, exactly what do you do to let them know they're welcome? Exactly what? Because schools will say, because we need that for relational safety. They need to feel welcome. They need to feel a sense of belonging, and they need to feel cared for. They need all of those things. So exactly what do you do to make them feel welcome? Exactly what you do to let them know they belong here. And exactly what do you do to let them know that you care about them? So there's some little levers that we can pull, but I also think it's important to validate to teachers. I know you've got your hands full and I know you've got, you know, 25, 30 little nervous systems you're taking care of. The thing is, we will, we want the ambulance at the top of the cliff, not the bottom of the cliff.
Karen Young [00:40:56]:
So the more we can do proactively, the less you're going to be managing the fallout from big behavior. I'm not going to say the big behavior is going to go, but it's going to make it less likely because we've built relations that we're adding in those safety cues, removing the danger cues. A grumpy teacher is a danger cue or a teacher that doesn't like me is a danger cue. So there are just some little levers we can pull here validating that you already have way too much to do. I acknowledge that for teachers. I absolutely acknowledge that.
Sharon Collon [00:41:27]:
But the strength in what you do in going into schools and empowering teachers, and I do the same for ADHD. I go into lots of schools, talk to the teachers about, you know, helping support kids with ADHD. And this is important because no one's giving teachers the training for this. They don't get any training on this, and yet they're the front line and they have the huge ability to impact. And I feel, I actually feel a lot of, you know, sadness and guilt for teachers because they're doing a huge job. They're not getting paid enough, and they've got no training for these frontline things that are important. So it's more than curriculum and it's so much more like, and now that we're seeing anxiety and adhd rates, you know, they're increasing. We're getting better at recognizing it and, you know, supporting girls and the inattentives and all the diagnosis are coming in.
Sharon Collon [00:42:18]:
This is becoming crucial. This is important that we have training for this.
Karen Young [00:42:22]:
Well, and my son's fiance is a teacher. My stepdaughter's a teacher. My dad was a teacher. So I get it. And even, you know, I say, how do you, like, how do you know how to deal with this? And they're like, well, we don't because we weren't taught this. And in the same way, I wouldn't know how to teach a room of 30 kids day after day. I can do it for an hour a day. But day after day after day, I don't know that we're calling in teachers to do these things that isn't necessarily instinctive.
Karen Young [00:42:56]:
And actually the way we've been doing it isn't right. We know that now. So all the traditional ways of responding to behaviour don't work. They actually do the opposite for all those reasons. But there are new ways now, so we have to do the new ways, but it's finding out what it is. And in my experience, when teachers know what they need to know, and I would, and I know we would never suggest to it in the same way I would never suggest to a teacher that I know how to teach kids. We don't start from there, but it's building those resources, because as the village for kids outside school is shrinking, and it is. It used to be seven adults to one child, it's shrinking.
Karen Young [00:43:38]:
The importance of school is expanding because that is the village and it's always been an important part of the village, but for a lot of kids and a lot of families, it's home and school, and it can be a beautiful village when it's done well and when it's done in a way that is respectful to the neurodevelopmental needs of children. I also want to say it's hard for teachers because the environment and the demands on teachers aren't consistent with relationship building. And this is where I say to teachers, you know, we do what we can. If you can do what you can, but that relational safety, if you don't have that, you're not going to be able to do anything else.
Sharon Collon [00:44:26]:
So tell me, what's the most rewarding part of what you do?
Karen Young [00:44:31]:
It's when I hear about kids being able to do, I get tingles even as I'm talking to you. You know, I'll get an email or I'll get a school. Say I had a school the other day, say they had a little one who wasn't coming to school. And I gave a parent talk to the school and the parent was there. And then that little guy started coming to school, not because of anything he did differently, but because of the information the parents had. And this is where I say, supporting parents, supporting teachers to be these incredible change makers is so rewarding. And when I hear about kids and they say, you know, parents will say another one. The other day, the kids were worried about going on a plane or something, and then the parents spoke them through with, hey, warrior and the plushie, and then they were able to do it.
Karen Young [00:45:17]:
When I hear stuff like that, I go, oh, I just want to keep doing this forever and ever. I just, I love it because it's all there in us, but it's not, you know, one of the things I say is if I've got to cook a dinner party for ten people, I don't necessarily need it, need a chef, but I need to know what the chef knows. I need the information so I can do stuff with it. And that's the most rewarding part, is when I hear about the ways that parents and teachers and kids have used this information to be brave.
Sharon Collon [00:45:50]:
So for our beautiful listeners at home, where can they find you?
Karen Young [00:45:55]:
So Heysigmund is my website. Lots of articles there and resources. Lots of free articles and free resources there, as well as books and also on Instagram. Karen Young, Heysigmund and Facebook. Karen Young Heysigmund are the big ones there.
Sharon Collon [00:46:13]:
And if you could leave our listeners today with one bit of advice that they can perhaps go away and try with their kid to support their children with anxiety, what would that bit of advice be?
Karen Young [00:46:26]:
Probably twofold. The first is love and lead. Love and lead. Don't drop the leadership. Add warmth to the leadership and keep the warmth, but add the leadership and recognise that they can feel anxious and do brave. So come in with that mindset of capability. It's okay for them to feel anxious as long as it's safe. Of course, as long as it's safe.
Karen Young [00:46:50]:
Recognise they can feel anxious and they can do brave. They're different. And then how do we move them towards it? And the first step is us showing them that we believe it. We believe we see them. I believe you that this is hard, and I believe in you that you can do this. What's the first step? We're going to take you.
Sharon Collon [00:47:10]:
Thank you so much for your time today, Karen. I loved our chat.
Karen Young [00:47:15]:
My pleasure. Thanks so much for having me.
Sharon Collon [00:47:17]:
Thank you for listening to this episode of the ADHD Families podcast. If you loved it, please share it on your socials. I want this to start a conversation about ADHD. If you want to make this mum do a little happy dance, please leave a review on itunes. If you would like to know more about what we do, check out thefunctionalfamily.com. i truly hope that you enjoyed this podcast and you use it to create a wonderful, effective, joyful life with your beautiful children.
