Jacquie Ward [00:00:00]:
I'm going to start this by saying, when we talk about oppositionality and defiance, and this is what I see in clinic, too. Sometimes the kids and the parents come in and they start off sort of gently and tentatively. They say, oh, you know, a bit of swearing, some, lots of yelling and throwing things. And really, for me that's just the tip of the iceberg. And I want to open up this conversation and say, let's just be completely transparent and talk about it all, because it often gets far, far more intense than that.
Sharon Collon [00:00:24]:
Welcome to the ADHD Families podcast. I'm your host, Sharon Collin, and award winning credentialed ADHD coach and coach consultant and mama and wife to a very ADHD family. I am seriously obsessed with making life easier for people with ADHD and those that support them. My business, the functional family, provides life changing support and strategies for ADHD. I particularly love anything that saves time, decreases conflict, and creates space for fun. Do you want a life with your beautiful family that is more functional, fun and full of joyous? Let's explore together the wonderful and sometimes wacky world of family life with ADHD in the mix. Welcome to another episode of the ADHD Families podcast. I'm your host, Sharon Collin, and I am so happy you are here.
Sharon Collon [00:01:19]:
Today we are talking about oppositional behaviours. You know, when some people are dysregulated, it all comes out right? And other people, they shut down. Both are equally as distressing for the nervous system. It's just one of them is louder and looks a bit more intense and perhaps attracts a bit more shame and judgment. That's what we're going to narrow in on today. Does your child have oppositional behaviors? Do they throw things, hit things, have tantrums in the supermarket? So, to discuss this topic, I have brought in the incredible psychologist Jackie Ward. Now, she specializes in this area. She works with a range of presentations, including autism, anxiety, depression, and challenging and disruptive behaviors, but has a particular interest in ADHD as she's a mama to a very adorable ADHD herself.
Sharon Collon [00:02:14]:
In this podcast episode, she lets us know so many great practical tools and strategies, like what should we do in the heat of the moment when our child is swearing and yelling and perhaps hitting us? What can we do to manage our own regulation? How to support our child with the regulation? How to do repair, how to support the whole family when we have oppositional behaviours in the mix? Let's get to it. Welcome, Jackie. I am so excited to have you on the podcast today.
Jacquie Ward [00:02:46]:
Absolutely thrilled to be here. We've made it happen after a few reschedules and things getting in the way. I'm just so thrilled to be sitting down in front of you across the screen and having this conversation.
Sharon Collon [00:02:57]:
Look, I know. Well, I know you professionally and I know how much value you're going to provide to our wonderful listeners at home. But before I dive in and I've got a whole host of really interesting questions to ask you. Tell me a little bit about, or tell our listeners about what you do and why you do it.
Jacquie Ward [00:03:16]:
Okay, sure. So, my name is Jackie Ward. I'm a psychologist who is fortunate enough to speak her work looking after young children, teens and their families. Obviously, I work across the spectrum, so I work with a whole range of presentations, anxiety, depression, autism. But I have a big love. Probably my most loved area of work is supporting children and their families that present with ADHD. And that is both personal and professional because I think it's important that you know that I'm also a mum to three little ones. I have two beautiful boys aged nine, eight, and then a little girl who's four, and one of my boys is diagnosed with ADHD.
Jacquie Ward [00:03:57]:
So for me, it's very much personal and professional.
Sharon Collon [00:04:00]:
So is that why you took a special interest in ADHD?
Jacquie Ward [00:04:05]:
Yeah, absolutely. I always knew I wanted to work in child psychology, so that was actually a midlife career change for me. When my eldest was born, I went back to uni and over the course of seven, almost eight years of part time study worked my way through to registration. So I knew I wanted to work with children and adolescents, but when my little one was diagnosed and just being mum to him from, you know, day dot, that was where the interest really came from in ADHD. Particularly interesting.
Sharon Collon [00:04:34]:
So what thinking about some of the families that present to you, what are the challenges that they're facing when they have little ones with ADHD?
Jacquie Ward [00:04:43]:
Yeah, so it's a bit of a mix, but without doubt. So a mix in terms of when they present. So some of them present before their child has been diagnosed and they come in and say, you know, we're just having such a hard time. He or she is just so different from their siblings or their peers, and I just don't know how to support them. And when you dig a little bit down, the core thing that they're noticing predominantly is emotion regulation challenges and whether that manifests in big, explosive behaviors, which is typical and actually my favourite presentation to work with the children that present that way, or some of them come in and they're noticing that there's a lot of worry or anxiety as well. And that's really what tips off the journey to diagnosis. Others come in already having been through the process of diagnosis and they just, they say that their child's just struggling. And again, it starts off with, they say, we just need help with emotion regulation piece.
Jacquie Ward [00:05:37]:
But when you look a little bit further, it stems into then challenges with self. So self esteem and the way that child is viewing themselves, family dynamic challenges as well, because, you know, that's such a significant part of it. For families that are navigating the start of their journey of understanding their child and how to best support them, you know, it's pretty challenging on the whole family. So they would be probably the three biggest areas, I'd say. Yeah.
Sharon Collon [00:06:02]:
Okay. So thinking about some of the more challenging behaviors, and I want to preface this by letting our beautiful listeners know that if you're listening to Jackie talk and you're thinking, oh, my gosh, she's amazing. Well, yes, she is. And she's coming into the ADHD families membership to do a workshop for us on oppositional behaviours, which is why I'm very much, you know, wanting to ask her questions. In relation to that, tell us a little bit about oppositional behaviours. What do they look like?
Jacquie Ward [00:06:33]:
Mm hmm. Yeah, I'm going to start this by saying when we talk about oppositionality and defiance, and this is what I see in clinic, too. Sometimes the kids and the parents come in and they start off sort of gently and tentatively. They say, oh, you know, a bit of swearing, some, some, lots of yelling and throwing things. And really, for me, that's just the tip of the iceberg. And I want to open up this conversation and say, let's just be completely transparent and talk about it all because it often gets far, far more intense that. So it may look like certainly swearing and verbal aggression, but then physical aggression too, punching walls, kicking, lashing out, potentially self harm as well for those that are really dysregulated, you know, the whole gamut of behaviours we see, and that can be part of the presentation as well when I talk about aggressive behaviours.
Sharon Collon [00:07:20]:
So, you know, I think I was in a session yesterday and we were talking about how some kids show their behavior outwardly and that's often gets a lot of attention and it's distressing, but some kids inwardly shut down and that's equally as damaging for the nervous system, but it's quieter and so we forgive that one a little bit more.
Jacquie Ward [00:07:46]:
Oh, my goodness. This is it. I'm so glad that we're going there straight away. And this is what pulls at my heart because while I've got big heart for those ones that internalize, so that would be your ones that present with anxiety and rumination and, you know, really going inwards in terms of what they carry. And that is, that's incredibly hard to bear. But culturally and socially we're conditioned to find that a bit more acceptable. And I'm putting that in air quotes, but acceptable. And we have, we generally have bigger compassion for those kids because we see the worry and we, you know, we.
Jacquie Ward [00:08:17]:
They're the ones that you want to scoop up and hug and reassure that it's going to be okay. So when that kind of presentation is picked up, generally the adults and the caregivers in their life, whether that's the teachers at school or their therapists or their sport coaches or their parents, it's a little easier to have compassion for those kids. Whereas the ones that present at the other end of the scale with these, what we call externalising behaviors, the big explosions, the physical aggression, the verbal aggression, the really, really big behaviors culturally that's harder for people to get their head around and can be really triggering for parents. And I get that. I'm the first to put my hand up and say, when this was happening in our home, I was incredibly triggered by that. Especially if you yourself aren't someone who's a big exploder. And so it's harder. And for that reason, often these children don't get the same level of compassion nor support perhaps, that those at the other end of the scale do.
Jacquie Ward [00:09:17]:
But it is exactly the same impact on our nervous system. Equally damaging, equally hard to process, just presented in different ways.
Sharon Collon [00:09:25]:
And the shame that can come along with it. Right? So you've got the kid who swears at you in the supermarket, like f off mum. And the mum, you watch the mum, she's just like. Because people heard it. Like the shame that comes along with that, which is so unnecessary and so unhelpful and it prevents you from being there for your kid or showing up for your kid in that way. And then we turn away from our kids with judgment instead of turning towards them with compassion and we say something we like, imply to our kids, you don't have a seat at the table anymore. Like, this is. You are excluded from this.
Jacquie Ward [00:10:01]:
Yes. And here's why that's so problematic because, well, for so many reasons on its own and we can go back there, but also the piece of shame for the child because particularly for children with ADHD, we can talk about rejection, sensitivity, dysphoria. But that shame piece is so painful, it's literally akin to feeling a physical pain for them to feel the shame. And many of them do. They react, and it's like it happens impulsively, and then the shame wave comes on. And that is just so detrimental for their wellbeing, for their progression, for their development. And when you couple that with a parent who's also feeling shame, perhaps around their child's behaviors or the way they've reacted, we get a big shame storm. And it's horrendous.
Jacquie Ward [00:10:43]:
I've been there. I know how sickening it is. And yet it's a probably the least helpful place we can go if we're looking to support our kids, to learn better ways and look after ourselves, to learn better ways in parenting, too.
Sharon Collon [00:10:57]:
So let's take it back to that example, because I'm sure there's people nodding along to this, and there's always that old guy in the supermarket who's like, that kid needs some discipline. I don't know. I'm forever surrounded by those. Those kind of comments.
Jacquie Ward [00:11:13]:
Yeah, me too. Been there. Had those conversations I had, actually. Can I share a quick story? Yes, please. So I graduated from my first part of my studies. It was like my first bachelor degree, and I was so pumped. It had been years of slogging along. And my little guy was.
Jacquie Ward [00:11:29]:
He was at preschool, so he would have been about four, I'd say. And it was so important to me that him and his younger brother, who was two, were there at the graduation ceremony to see me in the cap and gown. And that's ridiculous looking back, because they don't care about that. But it was completely ego fueled for me. I wanted them there in the photo, so we took them. It was a total fail. First of all, my husband and I drove separately, so we paid about $500 in city parking that day. He brought them in, bless him, my beautiful husband that probably knew it was the worst idea in history, but brought them in, and of course, it didn't work.
Jacquie Ward [00:12:00]:
He was disruptive. He was running around the halls and yelling out the whole time. And then we got the photo, and he knocked the cap off my head. And there was a grandma there visiting with her family, obviously seeing her family member graduate. And she came up to me and she said, you know what? Maybe next you could study how to be a better parent to that boy because he needs some discipline. And I was just, like, speechless. But it just goes to the irony of the fact that I was there graduating in psychology and whatnot. And I just thought, yes, well, anyway, now I look back and laugh, but at the time, it was pretty devastating.
Sharon Collon [00:12:37]:
You can't, like, you can't make that stuff up. Like, that is just. I mean, I'm sure we've all been and, like, in those moments where you feel that heart wrenching shame. And the worst bit is, like, on reflection, like, I would have totally stayed up all night thinking of cool stuff I could have said back to her, but, like. But I. In the moment, you're so flawed that someone says that you don't say anything. You just cop it, right?
Jacquie Ward [00:13:00]:
I was literally just this silent person with their mouth open and their cap on the floor and their toddler flailing on their hip. And I was like, oh, okay. That wasn't quite the moment I sought out today.
Sharon Collon [00:13:09]:
I am so sorry. I'm really controlling, like, my own parent rage for you that I need to go and track her down.
Jacquie Ward [00:13:16]:
I appreciate that. I'll take that and give that a snuggle.
Sharon Collon [00:13:21]:
So going back to supermarket, we've got a child with oppositional behaviors. They have, like, said, f you, mum. They're dysregulated. Give us, like, a walkthrough of what we should be doing. Like, I know what a lot of people do. Like, we go, like, don't say that. And then we, like, shut down. And then we, like, turn away.
Sharon Collon [00:13:40]:
Tell us what we could do instead to give us some practical tools, for sure.
Jacquie Ward [00:13:45]:
And so this comes from someone six years later and a whole lot of self work and work and learning. And that's why I can offer this now. So in that moment, without doubt, the most critical thing is not. Well, the default pattern is to make a show, typically, of showing everyone around us that we perceive to be watching us, that we can handle it and that we are going to teach our child that that is not acceptable. Okay? And so that's a default pattern to go to, whether it's something like, you know, verbally telling them that or pulling them out of the store or whatever it is. But actually, what's most critical, the first, very first thing we need to be doing in that moment is regulating ourselves. And so it is taking that pause. You don't owe anybody an immediate reaction.
Jacquie Ward [00:14:30]:
And so taking a pause to check in with yourself and regulate yourself, that might look like taking a deep breath. It might look like saying something in your mind along the lines of, I am triggered in this moment, but I can handle it. And getting yourself in the right spot to respond to your child number two part is knowing deeply, and we can talk about this more in the masterclass, but understanding that a child who is defiant or aggressive is a child who is scared or dysregulated. And so maybe you said no to something that they were requesting. Maybe they're just completely in sensory overwhelm, being in a supermarket, because, let's face it, supermarkets are overwhelming. Maybe they've had a tricky morning, and this was the final thing that made their emotional cup tip over. There could be a million factors, but understanding that a brain that is showing up with defiance or aggression is a brain that needs help. And so in the moment, while we think typically society and cultural conditioning will have us think that child needs to be taught that that's not acceptable, in actual fact, any child who is over the age of two knows intellectually that swearing and carrying on like that is not acceptable.
Jacquie Ward [00:15:42]:
And so they actually are looking for support. And the best way we can do that is to remove them from the situation as soon as you can, whether that means actually leaving or pulling them into a quiet corner to connect with them. But the goal here is connection, rather than turning away or I, you know, presenting with our own defiance back. That's another thing that typically happens. And then we just see this escalation of parent and child defiance. You're locked in a power battle. Don't go there connecting with them to get, you know, move through whatever you need to move through, whether it's checking out your groceries or leaving, whatever you're going to do. And then we'll talk about how to, you know, actually address what happened later.
Jacquie Ward [00:16:21]:
But that. That's not the moment to be addressing the interaction there.
Sharon Collon [00:16:25]:
Love this so much, because so often I feel like parents get stuck in the trap of too many words, right? So something happens, and we're like, you know, I said that you could do this after this, and, like. And I told you that this morning, and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And the kids, like, totally, like, in there, like, they're already in fight or flight. They're not hearing anything. And it might look good to people around us, but, like, it doesn't actually serve any purpose. Yes.
Jacquie Ward [00:16:50]:
And then that's actually a really good point, just to reflect on. Think about yourself in those moments, how much of it, probably a good part of it is you wanting to be like, I'm going to be really calm and talk this through with my child, but maybe there's a bit of it, if we're honest, that's performative, too, to see everybody around us that, you know, look, I've got this, guys. I'm going to talk it through and I'm going to be calm. And that's human nature. That's totally fine. But the actual facts are, when our child is dysregulated, as you said, their brain is in fight or flight, and the part of their brain that is rational, able to communicate, able to listen, even, is offline, you might as well talk to the wall, because that is not the time to have that conversation. The time to have that is when you're back home or you're in the car and things are calmed down. Sure, have that then.
Jacquie Ward [00:17:33]:
But in that exact moment, the main priority, absolutely, is just regulating with them. Co regulating has the big buzzword, I'm sure everybody's heard, but that's a classic example.
Sharon Collon [00:17:43]:
So can you give some examples of, in that scenario, how we would like, once we perhaps get them out? And maybe the getting them out bit doesn't look so great, how do we co regulate? Or how do we help them regulate?
Jacquie Ward [00:17:57]:
Yeah, sure. So the first part of co regulation, by its very definition, requires that we, as the loving adult, are somewhat regulated ourself. And that doesn't mean we need to be zen like or feel completely untriggered and unruffled. You can be ruffled and still be regulated. It just depends on us being in control of our own ability to work through that and respond to our own emotions appropriately. So what it might actually look like in real life is, as I said, taking that pause for yourself. I still need the pause. You know, it gets better with practice and the pause gets shorter and shorter.
Jacquie Ward [00:18:32]:
But it's likely, I think as humans that care and feel things, we're always going to need a pause. So take that time for yourself. Whether that pause is, I don't know, a minute at the start, and then even more. Take whatever you need time to get yourself back to a somewhat regulated state. When you are regulated like that, you're going to have a chance of connecting with your childhood. So I always wait for the proverbial storm to blow over, because there is no point trying to reason and teach in that state. So when things are calmer, it can look like this. Having a conversation saying, hey, you know, what happened back there at the supermarket was pretty stressful.
Jacquie Ward [00:19:11]:
Like, you looked upset. I was pretty stressed. The whole thing, you know, it's pretty hard. They're likely to sort of say, hmm, yeah, you know, some sort of one word reply, or maybe you've got a talker who wants to really get in and unpack it with you. But good chance a lot of the kids I work with, that shame piece will flare up then. And they're like, oh, yeah, that's really embarrassing. And they do feel embarrassed about the way they acted or they know that the words that came out of their mouth they're not particularly proud of. And so it's a matter of having a conversation, you know, saying what was going on for you there.
Jacquie Ward [00:19:40]:
Get them to reflect on what happened, get their account of the way they saw it, and then you can go into a bit of conversation, like, you know, I'm just wondering if next time we could do it this way or, you know, I think without doubt the best way to come at it is just with gentle curiosity. The temptation can be to go into teaching mode, but you're going to have far more luck engaging and connecting with your child. If we can just be curious and get them to think about some of.
Sharon Collon [00:20:07]:
The things teaching or winning, we often want to win, right? Like, as parents, we're like, you know, I did tell you that if you picked that up, right?
Jacquie Ward [00:20:21]:
I still catch myself. I'm like, oh, in my head, Jackie, shut up. Shut up. Like, it's just normal. It's just a human response, but we can be aware of this and catch ourself out.
Sharon Collon [00:20:31]:
Oh, I have to laugh. I have to share a story because, like, you know, like, you and I do this for a job, right? Like, this is like, literally our job. And somewhere my middle child has picked up that that might be a vulnerability, right? So when he's dysregulated, he's like, AdHD coach of the year, right? Shaming me. Shaming me publicly. ADHD coach of the year. He forgets his sweater. Like, he forgets his jumper on the soccer field, yelling out, ADHD coach.
Jacquie Ward [00:21:03]:
And this is why I love our jobs so much. They are so clever and like, oh, so clever. Then you're never going to one up them, right?
Sharon Collon [00:21:10]:
No, I just have to own it. Okay. Yeah, yeah.
Jacquie Ward [00:21:13]:
Doing my best over here. So good.
Sharon Collon [00:21:19]:
There's nothing like making you do. There's no ego with this, so. And that's what I'm trying to portray, that, like, ego with parenting is like, if you parent from a place of ego, then you are only gonna make things harder for yourself, for everyone. Like, it's, it. You can't, we can't, we can't do that with these kind of kids.
Jacquie Ward [00:21:35]:
You gotta check that at the door. I've learned that too. And you know what? Doing that checking, that also makes the whole thing a lot more enjoyable, to be honest.
Sharon Collon [00:21:43]:
Yeah. Yeah. So telling. Now I want to, I know that there's people listening to this going, well, my kid does more than swear at the supermarket, right? Like, they are going to hit me or they're going to, like, grab the whole stuff of the aisle. Like, firstly, I want to preface this by saying that if you ever see me in a supermarket with my three boys with oppositional defiance disorder, that there is something that has gone seriously wrong. All right? I'm never taking them into that situation if I don't have to. Like, there's been an emergency offer.
Jacquie Ward [00:22:09]:
Help. Okay, yes. Smart noise, yes.
Sharon Collon [00:22:12]:
But for the kids that when they are in there and they do the hitting of the mum or they do, they're like pulling everything off the aisle, what can we do to, you know, help that kind of extension over that physical extension?
Jacquie Ward [00:22:26]:
Yeah, for sure. Gosh, so much. Where do we start? So I think, can we just talk quickly about odd as well? Because that's another really a real sort of passion area of mine, too. I'd encourage anybody who maybe their child has got that diagnosis or they're querying that diagnosis or they're interested in this subject to look up the work of a brilliant psychologist called Doctor Mona Delahooke. Doctor Mona is an american psychologist. She wrote an incredible book that I would really recommend to all your listeners. Sharon called beyond behaviours, and she's part of this wave of psychologists and psychology and neuroscientists who are presenting a new way of looking at challenging behaviours. And it's the way that I choose to look at them, too, the lens I look at it through.
Jacquie Ward [00:23:13]:
And so when I'm sharing all of this now, it's the work of Doctor Mona Delahooke and her peers, I suppose, that I'm talking from that perspective, and we look at behaviors, and I'm talking about the full range of behaviors here, too, even those that are more extreme than the little, you know, foot stamp and huff, because we're, you know, we're talking at the further end of the scale here. Any behavior like that, it comes from dysregulation. And so without going into a whole explanation of psychology, in the past, those kind of behaviors have been supported through a behaviorist approach where we looked at them, where, you know, we do things to extinguish challenging behaviors based on that behaviorist approach. Now we're looking at it more from perspective. Neuroscience, understanding the brain, and so oppositional behaviors, aggressive behaviors, any form of challenging behaviour are understood to be the product of a nervous system that is incredibly dysregulated. And so when we're looking at intervention and how we support them, we come at the view of looking, first of all, how can we help that child get back into a window of regulation and then support them to develop the skills they need to regulate themselves more often? And that's a long game. That's not something that we do with one or two sessions. That's, you know, really conscious work by the child and their loving caregivers supporters.
Jacquie Ward [00:24:35]:
That happens over time as they develop, too. So back to our kid at the supermarket. Let's just say they've gone completely into erupt mode. They're pushing things off the shelves, they're swearing, kicking, like, you have to literally physically carry them out of the store. That's a child that's in complete dysregulation. Their nervous system has clicked over, as we said, into that fight or flight response. And for whatever reason, there's many of them that it could be, their brain has interpreted that there's a threat and so it's trying to keep itself safe. What that looks like to us on the outside, of course, is, whoa, that's, like, intense.
Jacquie Ward [00:25:15]:
And look at that poor parent who's having to deal with that. And that naughty child is what many people would say, obviously, we don't think that. And so really, all that can be done in that moment, all that can be done once they've hit that level of dysregulation, is to let it play out. We can try and soothe them, we can try and take them to a safe environment where they can't be physically hurting themselves or anyone else. But in that moment, it's escalated to a point where there's not a lot more that can be done.
Sharon Collon [00:25:44]:
It's just safety at that point, isn't it?
Jacquie Ward [00:25:45]:
It's safety, yeah. Yeah. And then the real work begins when they are in a somewhat more regulated state where we can be, you know, connecting with them, letting them know we understand, letting them know that they are loved, that they're a good kid, but that we need to work on some skills here so that it's, you know, that level of distress for them isn't good either. So, yeah, no one chooses, like, if.
Sharon Collon [00:26:09]:
You think about, like, when we have lost it, right? I mean, you know, I can only imagine how that feels. No, I lose it all the time.
Jacquie Ward [00:26:18]:
Right. Five years ago, I think that happened to me.
Sharon Collon [00:26:22]:
Like, it's an awful feeling. No one chooses to feel like that. Like, kids don't choose to feel like that either. It takes. It takes all your energy. No one's choosing hardship or choosing to fail or choosing to be like that. Have those kind of behaviors that attract a lot of attention.
Jacquie Ward [00:26:40]:
Yes.
Sharon Collon [00:26:41]:
You know, so true. Yeah. One of the things that I love to do with my kids when they are, like, I can see they're getting dysregulated, is to say. Is to whisper to them something like, I've got your back here. Just tell me what you need. Right? And it's just like, it's just saying, like, I'm on your team. Like, don't forget, like, we're on the same team. Like, I will do what you need me to do.
Sharon Collon [00:27:01]:
Like, just tell me. Just tell me what it is. But without all those words, just a.
Jacquie Ward [00:27:06]:
Whisper, like you said, that is just the most powerful intervention for one of a better word. Like, that's a connection moment. Right? And connecting with someone who loves you and understands you, there is purely, simply no better or more thing more needed in those moments. So I just love that.
Sharon Collon [00:27:23]:
Yeah. It's when you're at the school and you're the teacher's about to come in with the feedback because, you know, who's done? Who's done what? It's that whisper of, I've got your back. It's okay. Like, we're gonna be okay. We're on this. We're on the team. Like, doesn't mean they're gonna get away with whatever it is. Absolutely.
Sharon Collon [00:27:41]:
It's not, it's not a pass. It's saying that I'm not, we're not. It's not you against me, it's us against the world.
Jacquie Ward [00:27:48]:
Oh, gives me goosebumps. Yeah. That is just. That's it. That's the magic there.
Sharon Collon [00:27:53]:
So thinking now, because I'm sure that there are parents here who have ADHD themselves, because we know, we know, like, largely genetic, who are thinking, well, I can't bloody regulate. How am I going to help my child regulate in that moment? Have you got any tips on how to help a parent regulate? You know, I know you said, you know, taking that moment, taking a breath, is there anything else that we can be doing to help us support our kids? Because our kids are modeling off us, unfortunately. And fortunately, you know, one of the things that my husband does that I noticed is he, when he's dysregulated, and he's been doing this ever since he was a child, he bites his hand. Right? So he bites his hand and he goes like that, look, looks. Looks a bit wild from the outside, but it's a strategy, right? I'm not gonna. It works. Now my kids bite their hand, which is interesting. So, you know, it really was evident that we're modeling regulation.
Sharon Collon [00:28:51]:
When we're modeling it, we're seeing it. Can you help us, you know, positively influence ourselves and our kids?
Jacquie Ward [00:29:00]:
Yeah. So I've just been thinking, as you've asked that question and thinking it through, I've got three suggestions. One's a long term one, and the other two are more immediate things we can do in the moment. So the long term one, basically is pop yourself into some sort of support program yourself, whether that's therapy, a coach, you know, a course that you can take online. There's plenty of great. I know you've got lots of offerings as well, so perhaps people listening to this are already doing that, which is brilliant, but don't overlook the part of it. You know, there's two pieces to the puzzle. That's the way your child's behaving, but the way you're receiving it, too.
Jacquie Ward [00:29:33]:
And both are equally deserving of support here. So that's the long term version, which is like the annoying answer, because you're like, yeah, great. All right, well, what am I going to do in the moment, though, Jackie? But I feel like I had to say that in the moment. There's two other things that I find particularly helpful, and I know clients have found helpful, too. If you are someone who is a bit of a thinker and goes automatically to, you know, what we call top down or cognitive strategies, it's really helpful to have a mantra that you use that's meaningful for you to just recite to yourself over. In those moments, for me, I've always said something like, I love you, and I can handle this. So, super simple, it needs to be one or two sentences, something that you can repeat to yourself in that moment that feels fortifying and calming as well. So I love you, I can handle this.
Jacquie Ward [00:30:19]:
So when my child is absolutely flipping out because I won't let them run across the road, I think to myself, nope, I love you, and I can handle this. So no matter how big that behavior gets, no matter how embarrassed I am or how ruffled I am in that moment, I can handle it. And a mantra like that is super helpful in that moment. The second thing is, if you're more someone who finds it more helpful to be in your body in those moments, which is, I guess, a nervous system regulating thing, it's under the banner of grounding ourself. But something that's really helpful is just to find something that you can touch. So often when we're triggered ourself and we go into fight or flight, we can feel, you know, a bit disconnected from the moment. The idea is to bring ourselves back into our body. So that might look like just, you know, I'm doing it here on our camera.
Jacquie Ward [00:31:06]:
So, but just to explain, between your forefinger and your thumb, rubbing the fabric of your shirt together, something as simple as that, or even if you don't, if that's not accessible, just rubbing your fingers and your thumb together and that just brings yourself back to the moment in your body, which is just a tool to help center yourself and regulate in that moment before we react.
Sharon Collon [00:31:24]:
Love that so much. Now that is relying on people to take the pause, right? So how do we. And so many of our, like, amazing strategies are relying on the power of the pause, right? So we're pausing. How do we practice pausing? Because, I mean, if we could pause. Like, I don't know about you, but my worst parenting moments have been when I haven't paused. Because what comes out of my mouth is venom, right? It's like venom. But if I pause, I can get it together. Even if it's just for one breath, I can get it together.
Sharon Collon [00:32:02]:
How do we help people practice the pause?
Jacquie Ward [00:32:05]:
Yeah, I think that the secret is in exactly what you just said. It's a practice. Don't. And let's take out any self blame or shame. Because as I said, this is absolutely much like when you learnt to drive a car or, I don't know, any other skill or technique. You've had to practice, practice, practice over numerous times. Like you didn't get in the car and have your mum quickly show you how to use the gear stick and the clutch. And then she yelled at you, probably.
Jacquie Ward [00:32:30]:
And you yelled back and the car stalled. No, it was hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of repetitions and hours logged and different environments that you practice that in to now have it be something that's automatic. You don't even think. Now when you jump in the car, sometimes I get to where I'm going and think, oh my gosh, I didn't even concentrate on the actual driving part because it's so automatic. And I guess eventually it's a little bit like that regulating ourself. So first and most importantly, know that it is a practice, is a practice something that will get better in time. And it's really just a matter of doing, doing the work. I mean, if there was a magic wand and we could fast track it, that would be a dream.
Jacquie Ward [00:33:08]:
But it's just catching yourself in any situation, whether it's a, you know, terse word with your partner, that could be, like, a lower stakes type of engagement. Or at work, if somebody really. You get an email that really annoys you and inside your head, you're blowing up about it. Any interaction like that, not just with your children, but any interaction in life, is an opportunity to practice that pause. So look for those. Those opportunities, I guess, and do the work.
Sharon Collon [00:33:33]:
Oh, I love that. I love. Carolyn Maguire has this saying. When she's in the red, like, in the red zone, she's like, I am not fit for human consumption in the red. So she's like, I don't do anything in the red. I don't send the email. I don't make any action. I do not move in the red.
Sharon Collon [00:33:47]:
I just get out of there.
Jacquie Ward [00:33:49]:
Yes, I'm brilliant.
Sharon Collon [00:33:51]:
I love that. It's always stuck out in my head. Not fit for human consumption. I was like, so true.
Jacquie Ward [00:33:56]:
Yeah, very true.
Sharon Collon [00:33:59]:
Now go. Go back to discipline. Right? Like that. Discipline the old guy in the supermarket. And, you know, I'm not a fan of, like, the word discipline. I am a fan of natural consequences. But can you tell us, because, you know, obviously, this is something that we question in as parents all the time. Like, we.
Sharon Collon [00:34:17]:
We go from, you know, handling a child, like, you know, supporting a child with regulation, handling an incident, then, you know, we're often a bit stuck. Like, what do we do? Do we have a discipline? Like, do we have a consequence? Like, what do we do? Are they just getting away with it? You know, can you impart your wisdom on that?
Jacquie Ward [00:34:38]:
Without doubt, the biggest pushback I get from in parent sessions is, and, look, it's. It's, well, mean, but the pushback is. But if I don't have a consequence, or if I don't set a, you know, punishment in that inverted commas, how will they learn? How will they learn? And I hear you. I had the same reservations as well. However, children learn best, as you've said, through natural consequences. That is when the most powerful learning happens, because that's human functioning, essentially. So if you are concerned that your child won't learn because they didn't get a consequence or a punishment served up because of the behavior or whatever it was, know that. I mean, that's the way that therapy worked in the past.
Jacquie Ward [00:35:25]:
And now we're moving more to this neuroscience model, which says to us that by far and away. The most important and powerful way to learn is through connection with someone else. Hence why modeling is, you know, you spoke about the hand biting example. That's the most powerful teaching that we could possibly do through modeling. And so by working through ruptures, you know, repairing with your child, having conversations about how we'll do it better next time, skill building in terms of their self regulation skills, these are tools of teaching that are going to be far more effective in the long term. Definitely in the long term, which is we're raising humans here. We're not ticking boxes. That's what powerful learning is.
Jacquie Ward [00:36:08]:
So what we often see is if we're addressing a particularly challenging behavior and you can address it, sure, consequences will be effective in the short term. I'm not disputing that at all. And maybe there are things that are happening that are dangerous for your child or self harm that need to be addressed immediately. But if we're looking to really set our children up for success for their lifetime, you know, when you're not going to be there with a sticker chart or, you know, dashing out a consequence straight away, what we need to be doing is addressing learning through these other ways because that's going to be most effective in the long term, setting our kids up with the skills they need.
Sharon Collon [00:36:43]:
And, you know, like, the whole idea of learning, like, they've got, they've got to learn not to do it right. No one learns anything if they don't feel safe. We can't learn. We can't learn, like, even in school environments, in home environments, we don't feel safe. We're not taking anything in any way.
Jacquie Ward [00:36:58]:
Exactly. And it's, you know, I go back to what I said before. If your child's over the age of two, say, you know, and they're hitting their sibling when they're dysregulated, it's not a matter of teaching them that hitting their sibling is wrong. They know that that's wrong. Of course they do. Intellectually, they know that's not the right thing to do. But there's a dysregulation there and impulsivity perhaps as well, that's what needs to be addressed. And so simply telling them, you know, yelling that that's not okay or whatnot isn't going to be as effective as supporting them to maybe channel their aggression elsewhere in that moment or learn how to calm themselves so that it doesn't reach the stage of physical aggression, that's where our energy and focus needs to be.
Jacquie Ward [00:37:36]:
I guess that's more what I'm trying to say. That's where our attention should be driven. But because of the way our parents were raised and their parents were raised, you know, it's been passed down this wisdom to us that punishment is the way that we address those challenging behaviours. But with what we know about the brain now, it's just. It's just not the case.
Sharon Collon [00:37:54]:
Interesting. So tell me a little bit about your incredible book that you have written.
Jacquie Ward [00:38:00]:
Oh, thank you. Yeah, I'm so excited. I wrote a book called Billy's Brilliant Butterflies and it is finally almost out. It's with the printers now and will be available on the 1 September this year. It's a children's book. It's kind of like one of those children's book that's also for adults as well, and it's basically just illuminating the experience of being highly sensitive. It talks about it in the context of a child starting school, but many ADHD families will recognise traits of high sensitivity in their little ones as well. So there is that crossover, certainly in children who are autistic as well, and also neurotypical kids that just present with the highly sensitive trait.
Jacquie Ward [00:38:42]:
So, yeah, that's essentially what it's all about and can't wait to get it out in the world.
Sharon Collon [00:38:46]:
I am so excited to share that for you and I know that it will be absolutely amazing. And now, thinking about your work, how can people find you?
Jacquie Ward [00:38:55]:
Yeah, sure. So I do practice out of a beautiful group practice called Flow State space, and we're based in Surry Hills in Sydney, so I offer in person consults, but also teletherapy as well. That's where you'll find me work wise. If you'd like to connect otherwise, my website, I think you'll link it for me, but it's jackie ward.com dot au. And Jackie is spelled J a c q u I e on the end.
Sharon Collon [00:39:19]:
Thank you so much for your time today, Jackie. If you could lead our parents with perhaps one bit of wisdom for them to take away and try today, what would that be?
Jacquie Ward [00:39:32]:
If I had to leave parents with one bit of advice, it would be something I read recently that I've been reflecting on so often, and that is, parenting is far more about self development than it is about child development. And I think now that I'm a little way into the journey, that's just so true. So just know that you are deserving of support and care and grace in the parenting journey at just as much as your child is.
Sharon Collon [00:39:55]:
I love that so much. We are all learning right. We are all changing and evolving, and we don't have to be perfect. We don't have to get it right all the time. It's impossible, you know. So I love that sentiment so much and what a beautiful note to finish on. So thank you so much for your time.
Jacquie Ward [00:40:13]:
Jackie, thank you so much. We said we'd keep it under 30 minutes. We almost did it, but too much to talk about. Thank you so much for having me. It was a total pleasure.
Sharon Collon [00:40:21]:
Thank you. Thank you for listening to this episode of the ADHD Families podcast. If you loved it, please share it on your socials. I want this to start a conversation about ADHD. If you want to make this mum do a little happy dance, please leave a review on iTunes. If you would like to know more about what we do, check out the functional family. I truly hope that you enjoyed this podcast and you use it to create a wonderful, effective, joyful life with your beautiful children.
