Vivian Dunstan [00:00:00]:
It does feel safe to do things online, but the problem is that online doesn't usually translate to an in person friendship and it's a different type of friendship and occasionally they do, but generally they don't and they aren't progressing the social skills as much as you would in person. Of course, you're just typing messages online. That is something that we cover as well is online communication, because there's still sort of rights and wrongs in what you do online as well.
Sharon Collon [00:00:32]:
Welcome to the ADHD Families podcast. I'm your host, Sharon Collin, an award winning credentialed ADHD coach and consultant and mama and wife to a very ADHD family. I am seriously obsessed with making life easier for people with ADHD and those that support them. My business, the functional family, provides life changing support and strategies for ADHD. I particularly love anything that saves time, decreases conflict and creates space for fun. Do you want a life with your beautiful family that is more functional, fun and full of joy? Let's explore together the wonderful and sometimes wacky world of family life with ADHD in the mix. Welcome to the ADHD Families podcast. I am your host, Sharon Collin, an ADHD coach, a consultant and a parenting expert.
Sharon Collon [00:01:27]:
And I am so happy that you are here today. We have a treat for you. We have the incredible Vivian Dunstan. Now, she is the founder and CEO of ADHD Support Australia. She set this up back in 2013 when both her daughter and herself were diagnosed. She's an ADHD coach, a parenting coach, a certified tech addiction and digital health educator. She is certified in the peers social skills for teens and young adults and she does a whole lot of work in this space to support those with ADHD. Today, we are narrowing in on her peer social skills program.
Sharon Collon [00:02:11]:
Social skills has a way of impacting everything. I'm of the opinion that everyone needs to learn social skills, not just neurodivergents, everyone. Myself, I've benefited from doing social skills training. We're going to really break this down in this episode so you can look at social skills as a skill that can be built. It can be built, we can practise it, we can support our kids to practise it, and it can really lessen some of the rejection and hurt that our beautiful humans feel every day. Let's get to it. Welcome, Vivian. I'm so excited to be chatting with you today.
Vivian Dunstan [00:02:52]:
Hi, Sharon, thanks for having me on. Appreciate the opportunity.
Sharon Collon [00:02:56]:
Oh, I'm so excited for our chat. So tell me a little bit about your journey, if you can.
Vivian Dunstan [00:03:03]:
Yeah, so goes back a little way now to 2013, I set up a support group for ADHD in the northern beaches. My daughter got diagnosed relatively late in life. She was 14. So, you know, as is with girls oftentimes, and especially back in those days, you know, flying under the radar. So, yeah, we had that diagnosis, and myself and another friend whose son also had ADHD, we decided that there was no support around for people with ADHD. So we set up this support group in the northern beaches, and that's basically what it was. And we very quickly realized there was a huge need. And I was organizing speakers every month, and we were getting people coming there from all over Sydney, Blue Mountains, south Coast, Central coast, and, yeah, so it kind of started from there, really.
Vivian Dunstan [00:04:08]:
And, of course, over time, it's evolved, and I've evolved. I've had a diagnosis of ADHD as well, in my fifties, in the last few years. So I guess in terms of, well, of course, in 2020, everything changed. I stopped doing the online talk. Sorry, not the online talks. I stopped doing the in person talks because of COVID and everything went online. And so, yeah, the speakers have been in all realms from, you know, medication to meditation and everything in between, really. I do like to bring a holistic sort of approach to things.
Vivian Dunstan [00:04:48]:
You know, I'm quite a believer in getting all the foundations right and uncovering all the stones and so on. But, yeah, that's basically the story. And then I sort of started doing the parenting course, which was in person, and now that's online. I also do the peers social skills course because, again, it's all things that I realized and from my own experience were needed and that sort of trying to help others in that situation. So, for example, with social skills, I had a speaker come in to talk about the peer social skills program because I knew that people kept asking me like, oh, my kids are suffering. They've got no friends, they're excluded, they're bullied, teased, and so on. And I knew from my own experience that's really painful for the child and for the parenthood. So when I saw the talk and what she said about the program, that's when I decided to go and do the training and become a facilitator for that program.
Vivian Dunstan [00:05:47]:
So I've been doing that for four years as well. So everything kind of, it evolves as I, as I sort of see that need, I guess. And so, yeah, I've been doing that for four years. And now another thing that's evolved is the digital parenting program that I've recently started because this was another thing that I was seeing. So I'm seeing a lot of parents in the parenting course, and you probably know this as well. You know, what's your biggest pain point? And, you know, what's the biggest leverage? And, you know, what do people reward kids with? What do they take away when they want to take something away? It's usually screens, and screens are usually a flashpoint as well. And then, of course, with my social skills groups, you know, there's a lot of people who are lonely. They're looking for connection, and then they're tending to look online for that connection.
Vivian Dunstan [00:06:40]:
And so, you know, I started to look more into it and, you know, researched and, you know, became a digital health and wellness educator. And that's why I thought this is really needed. It's really affecting, well, not just kids in our community, but in the community as a whole. So, yeah, I started this digital parenting program to help families to, you know, cope with that conflict over screens to create sort of healthier digital habits within the house. And, you know, that goes for us, too, right? Everyone's a little bit addicted to their phone. Everybody's a little bit, you know, overusing screens and things like that. But the thing is, you know, and people will say, well, you know, is it an addiction or not? But, you know, I just sort of feel like if it's pushing other areas of your life to one side, you know, they're not socializing with their friends, they're not getting out, they're dropping out of activities, they're not interacting with the family. They're just in their room on their screens or, you know, then that's when it becomes a problem and sometimes for, you know, for our community.
Vivian Dunstan [00:07:52]:
And actually, my next talk, because I have the monthly talks, the next talk is on substance abuse and addictions in the ADHD population. So that'll be interesting to see, you know, where that comes in because actually, screen addiction is as much of an addiction as anything else. You know, it raises the dopamine in the brain, you know, and creates that addictive cycle. So, you know, I'm not also always very careful to apportion any blame to parents or sort of make them feel bad that this, this is something that's happened, because it's all taken us by surprise. It's kind of crept in very quickly, hasn't it, over a very, very short period of time. And we've never been here before as parents. You know, we don't really know how to deal with this, and we didn't know what, what the result would be of handing our child a device or a phone or whatever. So sometimes parents are finding themselves in that position now and not really knowing how to, like, how do I get back out of this? How do I create a healthy, you know, benchmark or habits to move forward? So sorry, I've gone on a little bit there.
Sharon Collon [00:09:06]:
No. Oh, my goodness. That was. I've got so many questions. I want to back it up just a little bit by giving the listeners a bit of a description of what ADHD support Australia does because, you know, just in case. I'm assuming that most people would be aware, but I would love to let people know that aren't aware. What, what would you say is the elevator pitch for ADHD support Australia?
Vivian Dunstan [00:09:33]:
Well, as I say, it started out life as a support group, and then it's evolved to add on all these different things that I see as being needed and important. So basically I wanted it to be a sort of one stop shop, really, for people to think, oh, okay, I've got this diagnosis of ADHD because, you know, at the end of the day, that happened to me and it probably happened to everybody. You're told your child's got ADHD and then you're like, well, now what? And the pediatrician might say, well, maybe get some parent training, maybe get some psychology sessions. Here's your medication script or whatever, and that's basically it. And then you're kind of on your own with it and you've got so many questions. And that's, I suppose, what I wanted to achieve. So, you know, there's a lot of information on the website. And also the other thing that I wanted to do was I've got a directory on the website.
Vivian Dunstan [00:10:26]:
So there's a, you know, a directory of professionals, services and resources. I think you're on it, Sharon. So lots of ADHD coaches, pediatricians, psychiatrists, you know, it's growing, you know, and obviously it's an ongoing thing that I'm building up. But, you know, I just wanted some people, you know, because that's the most emails I get is like, I can't find a pediatrician. I can't find a psychiatrist. Who do you recommend? And I'm like, well, I can't recommend people all over the country. How can I know that? So I wanted to sort of create that as well. So it's like, I can come here for information.
Vivian Dunstan [00:11:02]:
I can come here to find a professional, somebody to help me. Maybe some products. Like, I've got recommended reading on there. So oftentimes when we'll have a speaker. I'll say, well, what book do you recommend on this topic? And they'll give me a book and then, you know, I'll add it on there. So a lot of them are recommended by my experts and so on, you know, and there's a blog on there. But, you know, I used to do a lot more sort of awareness raising and more sort of advocacy as well. I used to have meetups and self care events and things like that.
Vivian Dunstan [00:11:37]:
But obviously as it's evolved and I'm doing more and more, I just, I can't do all of those things. Like I do have a big Facebook group. It's got about 40,000 people in there now. So there's sort of support in there as well. But, you know, the thing is, over time, in that time I've been doing this, which is over eleven years now, there's a lot more people come to the arena, I suppose. You know, back when I started, there was about two ADHD coaches in Australia, one of which I think, of course, you know, that you had on Michelle Toner done a great amount of work and advocacy and another guy that lived around here. So, you know, and now, like, because I've done the coaching, I've obviously met a lot of people and I know that you've done the coaching now as well, the coach training, there's a lot more people coming into the space. We've got AdPa that's been set up that wasn't there before, advocating and doing a lot of that work because that work was needed.
Vivian Dunstan [00:12:42]:
And I sort of tried to do a little bit at the beginning, but you can't do everything. I tried to provide those supports that I saw as being needed. Does that answer your question? Yes. Yes.
Sharon Collon [00:12:56]:
One thing that ADHD support Australia does really well is connecting the community with experts, like experts that they might not even know exist. You know, you've got such an array of topics, you know, of these masterclasses and things that you do that are so useful to people, you know, and they can literally, you know, jump in and watch them. It's fabulous.
Vivian Dunstan [00:13:22]:
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, some of them are from the US, some of them are from here. You know, I try and get a, you know, such a wide variety, as I've said, and also things that you don't always see that much of, you know, like I mentioned maybe gut health or, you know, I've got somebody coming up talking about, you know, eating, you know, and people that have sort of eating disorders or things like that. And I've got one coming up on money, managing money and things like that. So it is a very wide, you know, array of speakers that I have. And, yeah, it helps to connect people with those topics. And, yeah, as I say, maybe things they hadn't sort of really thought of before.
Vivian Dunstan [00:14:06]:
And, you know, that, like I said before, when I started this, it was kind of like what I wished I'd known when I started the journey. And you probably feel the same, like, once you've researched it, like, that's one thing, but, like, it takes a long time to do that, to get up to speed with everything. So, yeah, my reason for setting up ADHD support Australia and, well, as I said, it started as the northern Beaches ADHD support group. And then when I thought of all these people coming from all around to the group, I was like, this needs to be online, so it's more accessible to everybody. And that's when I changed my name to ADHD support Australia. I started, like, the membership platform. So for any of those people just joining now that, you know, have missed any of those great talks that we've had and want to continue to see the new talks, I've got all of that stored on my membership site so people can become a member. They get sent the link to watch the live talk if they want to ask questions, but they've also got access to that.
Vivian Dunstan [00:15:13]:
That catalogue as well, which is really fantastic.
Sharon Collon [00:15:18]:
Yeah, I think it's amazing. And I just want to honor you a little bit because I always feel like the best work is done from a mum who's trying to find answers, when someone's got that drive to find answers and support their family. And like you said, it's what you wish you had at the start. Now, I want to change gears a little bit to talk about social skills, right. Because this is something that I think a lot of, you know, the teens preteen arena in our beautiful community are really struggling with. Now, we've got the digital problem here that we're head down in phones, but we've also got a real lack of social skill training. And it's not just for neurodiverse kids. Like, it's across the board.
Sharon Collon [00:16:05]:
Like, we do not have anyone yelling out, really, about what social skills are. And we say silly things like read the room. Well, how. Who teaches people to read the room? Right? How do you do that? So I'd love for you to give us, you know, some examples of the types of things people learn in your peer support or social skills programs.
Vivian Dunstan [00:16:27]:
Yeah. So there's a few things there. It's not just our community. I think, obviously, we've had Covid, we've had lockdowns. That's changed things. Everything's gone online for our young people. They weren't at school. Some of them felt anxious going back to school, you know, so when you're out there in the real world, you do kind of lose the skills in some ways.
Vivian Dunstan [00:16:52]:
So, you know, that's happened and that's exacerbated things. The digital stuff, you know, obviously is, you know, progressed in, in that time as well. But a lot of people realize that people with autism have those issues with social skills, but they don't always associate it with ADHD, but it's often there as well. So I see two types of people coming to my social skills classes, and some of them probably more the ones with ADHD. They might seem very chatty and very confident, but sometimes that's the issue. Sometimes they talk too much. Sometimes they interrupt. Sometimes they go on about one topic of interest, and they're not, as you say, reading the room.
Vivian Dunstan [00:17:38]:
They're not assessing the interest from the person or people that they're talking to. So in the social skills program that I do, it's very. And actually, it was designed for people on the spectrum by a clinical psychologist in UCLA, Doctor Lauren. So it's not something I've made up. It's an evidence based program with research behind it that shows that, you know, it works. It's about going through the concrete steps that everybody needs to know so you can fill in all of those gaps. So, for example, people might say, oh, you know, I want to meet new people. I want to talk to new people.
Vivian Dunstan [00:18:16]:
I want to talk to a new person or a group. And people go, well, yeah, just go and say hi. Just go and introduce yourself. That's what you do. But actually, what doctor Laurenson did was she researched what ecologically valid social skills are. And by that, I mean the skills that socially successful people actually use, not just what you might think, oh, just go and say hi. Just, you know, rock up and introduce yourself. She researched what people actually do, and then that in the course is kind of broken down into little steps.
Vivian Dunstan [00:18:50]:
So it's like, okay, so you want to approach a group. You're not going to go and interrupt their conversation that they're having and, you know, just say hello. And then they're just standing there looking at you and thinking, oh, who's this turned up interrupting what we're talking about? You know, we make steps. We might say, oh, you know, stand a little way away from the group, but, you know, all of the provisos don't look like you're loitering, you know, maybe be looking at your phone or book or something and be listening in. Like, what are they talking about? Is that a topic that I can, you know, contribute to if they're talk, you know, if I saw a group of people talking about, I don't know, cricket. I don't know anything about cricket. So if I join that conversation, it's going to be awkward. I'm going to have to change the subject.
Vivian Dunstan [00:19:39]:
I don't really know what to say. So, you know, that's one thing. Have a listen. Can you join? Move a little bit closer, wait for a small pause. You know, you don't want to interrupt, but it's never a perfect pause because people talk quickly. You know, you've got to, you know, come in. So you're going to come in on topic. You're going to talk about what they're talking about, ask them a question about it, make a comment.
Vivian Dunstan [00:20:04]:
You know, maybe there's a compliment somewhere, but, you know, say they're talking about some tv show, you might come up and go, oh, you know, like, oh, you're talking about x, you know, who's your favorite character? Oh, I love that show. You know, and then once you're there, you have to assess the interest because you're not always accepted into a conversation, are you? I'm sure, Sharon, you've had the same experience as I have of going to talk to a couple of people, and they're not really that interested. And, you know, we can normalize that and say, well, you know, why are you sometimes not accepted? Maybe they wanted to talk about a particular thing. Maybe they've got private conversation. Maybe they're busy. You know, it could be anything. But, you know, you're going to then assess the interest there. You're going to be like, okay, and when we say, assess the interest, that's your, what you say, reading the room, how are they, you know, are they looking at you? Are they asking you questions? Are they smiling? Or are they, you know, doing something else? Are they kind of turning away? Are they not asking you questions? They're not talking to you, not smiling? Maybe they're saying short answers or nothing at all.
Vivian Dunstan [00:21:12]:
You know, all of those types of things so that, you know, and then we also tell them, you know, what do you do if they don't accept you? That's another thing. How do you exit the conversation? But basically, you know, that's what you're doing. You're not just going up and saying, hi, you're going up. You're coming in on topic. You're asking a question, making a comment, assessing the interest. Hopefully then you start a good two way conversation. You'll be remembering all of the things that we've already talked about. Not interrupting, not talking too much, having a good two way conversation.
Vivian Dunstan [00:21:46]:
So that it's, you know, you're asking about them, they're asking about you. And maybe at the end of that, if you don't know them, you might say, by the way, my name is Vivian, and that's introducing yourself, but that's not always relevant. So what we're doing is we're not just going up and saying, hi, I'm Viviana. We're doing it in a sort of step oriented way, and that's what we're teaching.
Sharon Collon [00:22:13]:
So I've got so many questions. I've got so many questions. It's so exciting. So tell me how you mentioned there about exiting the conversation. Because this is something that I don't do gracefully. So when it's not going well, I tend to double down on, like, trying to correct the course. Right. I correct the course of action.
Sharon Collon [00:22:38]:
Can you tell me how, and, you know, for the listeners at home who might also have those situations where you go in to talk to a group and you realize that they're having a private conversation, you've missed steps somehow. How do you get out of it gracefully?
Vivian Dunstan [00:22:52]:
Well, that's the thing. It's getting out of it with sort of dignity and grace, as you say. And you don't want to get upset. I mean, it does feel a bit embarrassing, does feel awkward. Maybe you're angry, maybe you're annoyed that they haven't, you know, paid you any attention. But, you know, we want to keep our cool. We want to kind of think, okay, normalize it. They're probably having a private conversation.
Vivian Dunstan [00:23:13]:
It's not personal to do with me. I'm going to go and talk to somebody that does want to talk to me today. So really it's about not reacting or not overreacting. So if, and there's three separate situations you might find yourself in, there's a situation where you go and talk to people and they just completely blank you and never say anything. So in those circumstances, we're going to, you know, just keep our call and we'll kind of maybe look away and then we'll just walk away. We won't say anything. We won't do anything. Kind of trying to fly under the radar as if we've never been there.
Vivian Dunstan [00:23:50]:
And then hopefully they'll just carry on their conversation as if we never turned up and they won't be thinking anything about us, and we'll just go on our merry way. The other situation is sometimes you will turn up to a group and you'll talk and they will accept you a little bit. Maybe they'll throw you a few crumbs and talk to you, or maybe they're interested at first. Oh, yeah, hello. Answer a couple of questions, and then they're kind of going back to talking between themselves. And you feel like you're left out again. You feel like, well, they don't seem like they want to continue talking to me. And that, again, is where you need to leave the conversation.
Vivian Dunstan [00:24:29]:
But this time, they have made an effort to talk to you at the beginning, so you don't want to just walk away, because that would seem rude then, wouldn't it, if you just walk away. So this time you're going to give what we call a short cover story, which is like, oh, I've got to go, see you later. Something like that. So it's polite. You're not overreacting, you're just going, okay, see you later, and go. You're not waiting for them to respond either, because they may not. They may sort of say, oh, yeah, I see, yeah, and you just walk away. So it's just these small things, you know, it's not rocket science, really, but it's kind of breaking it down.
Vivian Dunstan [00:25:12]:
And then, you know, the third way that we might leave the conversation is when we have been fully accepted, and then when we've been fully accepted and we're chatting away and it's great, but we have to leave. Maybe we've got to get our bus or go to class or whatever, you know, then we will again, we'll make a cover story. But just saying, see ya. That would be rude because we're in a conversation. This time we make a longer one. Well, it's been really nice chatting with you. You know, I'm gonna. I've got to go to class now, so I'll see you later.
Vivian Dunstan [00:25:44]:
You know, we break it down into the actual steps. I'll see you later. You know, maybe if you do text them, you'll say, oh, I'll text you later. Not if you don't do that. But, you know, if they're people, you know. Yeah. So there's these different ways, and it's not huge, but if you don't really know what to do. Like you say, how do you do that? Gracefully? Really, it's about, yeah, flying under the radar, not making a huge deal out of it.
Vivian Dunstan [00:26:14]:
And I think that runs, that's kind of theme that runs through peers is, you know, you can't really control what other people do as well, but it's your reaction, you know, it's the same with things like teasing and things like that. When you overreact, you're making that more fun for the person teasing you. You know, they're able to press your buttons, but, you know, if you can not react if possible. And, you know, of course, we acknowledge that any of these situations are, you know, painful, upsetting, make you feel angry or annoyed, but we've kind of got to, you know, keep a lid on it a little bit.
Sharon Collon [00:26:54]:
Oh, I've got, you just touched on so much gold there. Can you, can you tell me a little bit, like, when I'm talking to clients about social skills stuff, two of the things that come up regularly, and I would love to see what you think about these, is, number one, monologuing, and I'll leave that for you to explain what that is and what to do about that. And the other one is jumping into problem solve. So someone might say, oh, I've had a rough day for blah, blah, blah, and they just jump in straight away to problem solve, and it sort of shuts the other person down or invalidates the other person. Can you give, you know, can you speak to those things, firstly, letting people know what they are?
Vivian Dunstan [00:27:35]:
Yeah. So the monologuing, I suppose, in peers, we call it being a conversation hog. So that is when you know, and you might think after the conversation, oh, we had a great talk, you know, and because you, you've talked, talked a lot, this is something I have to be careful with myself as well, that we go back at the beginning of our course to talk about. What does a good conversation look like? It's a two way conversation, as I said before, it's about you finding out about the other person and then finding out about you. And I guess that's with new people. If it's somebody that you already know, it's still the same. Still got to be, you know, like a game of tennis. You're asking them something and answering.
Vivian Dunstan [00:28:19]:
They're answering, asking you things. You've got to make sure that it's balanced. I mean, sometimes, you know, sometimes I find that difficult because some people ask a lot of questions, and so I give a lot of answers, but then I guess what you've got to bear in mind is I need to also ask you some questions, because otherwise it's all about me, and I'm not finding it. I might leave the conversation and thinking, oh, I talked about myself a lot, but I didn't find out anything about how you're going today. It's difficult when that's how you're maybe kind of programmed or you're used to doing things, but it's just being able to reflect and think, oh, I didn't realize I was doing that. So, in the peers program, actually, we have role play videos that we show a little bit cringe sometimes, and, you know, the kids kind of have a bit of a laugh over them, but, you know, it shows the person doing something wrong, you know? So we'll show, you know, somebody talking too much and the other person. And then you can see the other person's body language, like they're sort of. They're trying to talk and they're not being able to get a word in.
Vivian Dunstan [00:29:27]:
She's continuing to talk and saying, oh, this happened, and that happened, and the other person's getting more and more bored. And in the end, they don't look like they really want to talk anymore because it's not a conversation. And in the peers program, we do what we call perspective taking, and that's kind of the point of the role play videos. You know, they're watching the videos, and then it's not just me saying, oh, it would be this, you know, somebody would be annoyed. Somebody would feel like you weren't interested because I'm asking them. You're hearing back from your peers, and they're saying, oh, okay, yeah, like, that would be so annoying. Like, she's, you know, not letting her get a word in. She's not asking her any questions.
Vivian Dunstan [00:30:08]:
No. And what does her friend look like? Yeah, she looks bored. She looks like she wants to get away. You know, she's looking at her watch, whatever. And so, you know, it's. Because, especially with autism, but sometimes with social skills, it's not about us. I think we always think it's, you know, I'm anxious in a conversation. I won't know what to say.
Vivian Dunstan [00:30:33]:
I don't feel confident. But it's actually an interaction with two people, and you've got to think about, how is this for the other person? So, yeah, it's just about helping them to understand that and to sort of reflect. You know, I need to make this a two way conversation. I need to be asking you as many questions as you're asking me and allowing you the time to. To answer them. And, you know, we get down into the nitty gritty of that as well. So it's not just asking questions because you also don't want it to sound like an interview. You know, in this case, this is an interview.
Vivian Dunstan [00:31:09]:
So you're asking me questions and I'm talking more, but in a normal conversation it would be, you know, I'd be asking you more questions as well. So you don't want it to be an interview. It's got to be a two way. And also, you know, do you go from topic to topic to topic? You know, in our conversation here, you've asked me a question and then you've asked follow up questions, what we'd call follow up questions. It's like, oh, okay, so you mentioned the peers programme. You know, can you tell me a little bit more about that? You know, that's something we'd be talking about as well, you know, so it's not just, oh, I need to ask lots of questions. They've got to kind of follow on from each other as well. So there's that.
Vivian Dunstan [00:31:53]:
I think there was another thing you asked me there about asking people, the.
Sharon Collon [00:31:58]:
Problem solver, the jumping in to solve people's problems. So this is something that I watch. I'm like, fascinated by people, right. So I'm always watching people at parties and things because I kind of believe that everyone needs to do social skill training. Right. I low key think everyone benefits, myself included.
Vivian Dunstan [00:32:19]:
Well, funny you should say that, a lot of the parents, because with the peers program, actually, I didn't mention it's a, it's a 14 week program where the teens or young adults come on every week, but also the parents do the training as well. So they are in a separate session every week as well. So they're learning what their children are learning. And oftentimes they will say at the end of it, you know, I've learned a great deal as well. This has been really useful for me. And of course, in our community, as we know, I'm a case in point. A lot of parents find that they do have adhd or perhaps autism after they've had their own kids diagnosed. So I think there's a lot of undiagnosed things happening with the parents and, yeah, whether there is anything or not, as you say, a lot of people can benefit from social skills.
Vivian Dunstan [00:33:11]:
So, yeah, the parents are involved as well. That means that they're able to help their kids outside of the program. And after the program's finished. So, yeah, sometimes it can help them, too.
Sharon Collon [00:33:22]:
So I want to know a little bit about, you know, so in the conversational dance, like, right, or the tennis match that you described there before, one thing that I see people slip up on is someone is vulnerable. Someone tells something that happened that they're upset about, or maybe a challenge that they're facing, and someone missteps by going straight in for the kill with the solution. Right. But they don't know the background, so. Because they don't know what, like, really understand what that person is going through or what it's like to be in their shoes. It actually feels invalidating for the other person to jump straight for the solution. So you might say, like, something like, I've been really down lately. I have missed a bunch of work because I spray my ankle, and then the other person just comes in and goes, well, I've got a really good ankle surgeon, blah, blah, blah, blah.
Sharon Collon [00:34:13]:
I can just totally railroads on it. Can you tell me a little bit about any tips for that? Because that's one of the most common things I see. And you watch the person who's just been vulnerable feel completely invalidated because the other person's rushed straight to the solution. But, of course, people know their own solutions, right?
Vivian Dunstan [00:34:32]:
Well, they do, and it depends, I guess, how the other person does take that. Maybe, you know, they do feel invalidated by it. People are always trying to help. People are always trying to jump in, and, you know, it's. It's showing help. I mean, do people feel upset by that? I mean, yes. You just want someone to listen to you. I think, oftentimes, well, got a stereotype and say, it's a bit of a man thing.
Vivian Dunstan [00:34:59]:
Like, I'd say, you know, with my husband, it's a little bit more like, well, how can I fix this in a practical way, you know? And sometimes people do just want to. Want to fix, don't they? Rather than just sort of stick with it, you know? If I say, oh, something's upset me, he'll be like, oh, why are you doing that? Or why don't you? Whatever. Rather than just being like, oh, you know, that's, you know, sucks for you that you feel upset about that. You know, to be honest, we don't really go into that as a theme in peerse, as such. I think that's probably a bit more nuanced, and it feels a bit more.
Sharon Collon [00:35:37]:
Adult, actually, as an example.
Vivian Dunstan [00:35:39]:
Yeah, I mean, I do do the young adult program as well, but that's not a specific thing that we get into. But, no, I know what you're saying. And, yeah, I don't know whether that's just people in our ADHD community that would do that. I think that's more sort of.
Sharon Collon [00:35:58]:
And everybody, I feel like it's a curiosity mindset, too, because, you know, things. Problems can make people uncomfortable. Right. And so they want to move away from that discomfort really fast. So the quickest way to do that is to offer a solution. Right. But if you have a curious mindset, like, you know, something that we're trained in as coaches, Vivian, like, you kind of are asking questions about it and asking, you know, for people to. So you can really understand what it's like in their shoes before, you know, and whether you get to a part where you feel comfortable enough to offer a solution or not.
Sharon Collon [00:36:35]:
It's more about approaching everything with curiosity, which is interesting.
Vivian Dunstan [00:36:41]:
Yeah. And that's definitely something, as you mentioned, what we've learned in our coach training, but not everyone's done a coach training, so they do want to naturally sort of go to, well, how can I help you with this? How can I. How can we solve this? And, you know, yeah, they're not trained as a coach. It's a lot to expect.
Sharon Collon [00:37:05]:
Can you tell me a little bit about, you know, if you've got a team that is struggling with social skills and they have a lot of fear about approaching a group or making friends, you know, online can be. Can feel like such a safe place for our beautiful community because, you know, it's not in person. If something doesn't work out, you can just switch to the next game or get rid of that person. Can you tell me a little bit about how you can help support them to go out and give it a try and practice these skills? Because it is just a practice. Like, it's a. It's a numbers game. It's practice. Right.
Sharon Collon [00:37:46]:
Can you tell me about how you would support them to do that? Or how mums and dads can support their children to do that?
Vivian Dunstan [00:37:52]:
I mean, because some parents coming sort of feel like, oh, well, I'm coming to a social skills group and I. I do mine all online, so people think, oh, well, you should be doing it in person because it's social skills. But actually, I find that it's a safe space, as you said, for them to come to learn the skills. A lot of people feel like it's, you know, they want their kids to come because it's a friendship making group. It's not that they might make friends in the group, but really it's about learning the skills so that they can go and use them outside of the group. So I find that a lot of people had somebody last night, actually, that, you know, doesn't want anyone from their school to be there, you know, and if you go to a local social skills group where you can get to every week and it goes for 14 weeks, so you don't want to be too far away, you might see people, you know, there and where parents might think, oh, you know, that would be good because maybe you'll make a friend. And we all want our kids to make friends. That's why we want them to be on the course a lot of the time.
Vivian Dunstan [00:38:53]:
They don't want that. You know, they don't want, you know, they want to feel like they're in that sort of a little bit of an anonymous space where they're safe to learn the skills. So what we're doing is we're learning the skills in the program. The parents are learning the skills, you know, they're able to practice with their parent or social coach, as we call them, as well, and then they're able to, you know, we ask them each week, you know, this is your homework to practice. They also do a phone call with somebody in the group as well. So something that kids don't do much these days is a phone call. We teach them how to start and end a phone call as well. They do a phone call for their homework each week.
Vivian Dunstan [00:39:34]:
We troubleshoot what they've tried to practice as well. And so, you know, they're able to get that practice in a safe space.
Sharon Collon [00:39:41]:
I was talking about how parents can, you know, get their kids to overcome that fear of trying or practicing. Yeah.
Vivian Dunstan [00:39:49]:
Yeah. So, I mean, throughout the program, we are encouraging parents to make sure that they're enrolling their kids in activities that they enjoy, and that could be in school, lunchtime, after school, something in the community, you know, something that they enjoy, where they're going to meet other people that also enjoy doing that thing. So, one, they've got the activity to do. They've got that source of new people to meet. They've got the chance to practice their social skills a little bit more out in the community. And so it does feel safe to do things online. But the problem is that online doesn't usually translate to an in person friendship, and it's a different type of friendship, and occasionally they do, but generally they don't, and they aren't progressing the social skills as much as you would in person. Of course, you're just typing messages online.
Vivian Dunstan [00:40:47]:
That is something that we cover as well, is online communication, because there's still sort of rights and wrongs in what you do online as well. But it's not, they're not practicing those real in person social skills that are so important because at the end of the day, that child or young person is going to grow up. They need to go into the world. They need to go to uni or Tafe or some sort of training. They need to get a job, need to work with colleagues. You know, they need to, you know, go for interviews, talk to their boss, find a romantic partner. And we haven't really talked about that, but in the young adult program, I go into dating skills as well. Dating skills are something that people in our community struggle with because, again, if you don't have many friendships, you're not going out as much, you're not meeting people as much, you're not having those opportunities to meet people.
Vivian Dunstan [00:41:47]:
So obviously, a lot of people do meet romantic partners online now. But, you know, there's safety around that. There's right and wrong ways of doing things. We talk about, you know, how to let someone know you like them. We talk about flirting and incorrect or appropriate compliments, how to go on a date, what to do on a date, what to say on a date, and what about after the date. And very importantly, we also talk about consent for physical contact. Because when you're relying on nonverbal cues sometimes in those situations, and you're not very good at that, wires can get crossed and things can go wrong. And, you know, sometimes I feel like some of the population are a little bit vulnerable, a little bit naive in terms of relationships.
Vivian Dunstan [00:42:41]:
And if you don't have many friends, you're not talking about that stuff very much. You don't know that very much about it. So I think that's a really important part of the young adult program. I am actually going to be doing a standalone dating program coming up soon as well. So for people, because the teens program is very similar to the young adult program. And so if you were a teen and you've kind of grown up and think, oh, I'd like to do the dating, you don't want to do the whole program again, I thought maybe just doing a dating program would be useful for them.
Sharon Collon [00:43:16]:
What do you think a parent can do to get their children to practice social skills?
Vivian Dunstan [00:43:25]:
Yeah. So as I've said, parents come on the course with them. Well, obviously, if you're not on the course, it's really just talking about how their interactions are going and kind of troubleshooting that at home, but creating a source of friends for them, helping them with their confidence in this. If someone says, oh, you're doing that all wrong, or I, you know, don't do that, or, no wonder you've got no friends, or, you know, you've got to, like, keep on being encouraging, making sure that you're providing them with those places to go. The thing is, sometimes people have dropped out of doing those things because maybe they don't have the social skills knowledge and therefore it hasn't gone well, and therefore they're like, oh, I don't really want to go back to netball because no one talks to me and I find it awkward or, you know, I've got no friends or whatever. So learning the skills is, you know, good. There's several books on social skills on my recommended reading on my website. Obviously, it's hard to sort of say in a few minutes what you can do because it's a 14 week course, but there are some good books on there that can help with some extra tips as well, but getting them out there and then, you know, in our course, of course, you know, we're trying to practice something every, every week.
Vivian Dunstan [00:44:58]:
And as you practice every week, you know, even if it's just like, well, you know, normally you don't want to talk to anyone because you don't know what to say. So we're encouraging them to sort of, oh, maybe you're going to turn to the person next to you and, you know, make a comment, ask a question, give a compliment, you know, and we kind of practice that in the class. Oh, I like your pencil case. Where'd you get it? Which is some easy thing like that that you might say, it doesn't have to be anything deep. And then you're assessing the interest and then you're having maybe a conversation, maybe they don't want to talk to you. Maybe you get into a little bit of conversation. That's a bit of a win. And the more you do that and the more you feel like, oh, that wasn't so bad.
Vivian Dunstan [00:45:39]:
And actually, that person did want to talk to me and it might have only been a couple of sentences, but we had a conversation and I know a little bit more about that person. And that's the thing, when you're talking to somebody, you have to show that you're interested in them. Everybody likes to feel like they're interesting. So that is a tip, I suppose, make the other person feel like you're interested in them. And what does that look like? That is asking them questions. So what do you like to do on the weekend? Or what did you get up to on the weekend? That's always a great question because, you know, then they might say, oh, well, I was playing soccer. Oh, you play soccer? What position do you play? Or where do you play? Or how long have you those follow up questions around that question that you've asked? So just an easy question like, well, what did you do on the weekend? Can elicit quite a few bits of information that you can follow up on. And if someone's asking them, I always say, never say nothing because oftentimes people say, well, who wants to know that? I just sat around watching YouTube all weekend, or gaming or I didn't do anything.
Vivian Dunstan [00:46:53]:
Who wants to know that? But very rarely are we doing absolutely nothing. You might have been watching tv, say, so, oh, just had a quiet weekend, watched a bit of tv. That gives them the opportunity to go, oh, what were you watching? You know, and then you might say, oh, I was watching whatever, and they go, oh, I love that show. Or, oh, I haven't seen that. Tell me a bit more about it. So it gets the conversation going. If somebody says, what did you do on the weekend? You go, nothing. Where do they go with that? They got nowhere to go.
Vivian Dunstan [00:47:26]:
So it's your response as well as you asking people questions, and it's showing interest in the other person. And when the other person feels like you're interested in them, they're more likely to be interested in you back.
Sharon Collon [00:47:40]:
And when you say, you know, getting. Getting our kids out there, one of the things that I wanted to flag there is, you know, putting them in situations where they are comfortable or where they shine, right? So my eldest had a lot of trouble with social skills, but he always had motocross, right? But he was naturally good at it. So he could go to the track and he could make friends and he could have conversations, and he had, like, his little people because they had that share thing, and he was shining there because he was, like, great at it. So he had that boost of confidence. And so I was thinking about translating that to some of my other kids and some of the clients that I work with. Where is an arena where they're shining? Like, maybe there's something that they are really good at. Maybe it's, you know, maybe it's maths, maybe it's, you know, maybe it's science experiments. Maybe it's something like, where can we put them that is allowing, like, aligning their strengths to allow them to shine, to allow them to have that little extra bit of confidence so that they can make the approach and they can join the conversation because they've already got that.
Sharon Collon [00:48:48]:
They're in an arena where they're shining.
Vivian Dunstan [00:48:50]:
Yeah, absolutely. And, you know, that is, that is what I encourage, finding an activity that you really like. It's good if you are really good at it because obviously you feel confident in that arena. Like you say with your son, you know, sometimes there's, like, kids that don't really have anything that they're super good at, but they just enjoy doing it. That's okay as well. But I'd say as well, you know, like, when you do go to these activities, you know, there can still be a tendency to not socialize appropriately as well, even though, you know, you have a little bit of kudos if you're good at something or, you know, you've got that activity to talk about, that's great. We want to really also keep the momentum going on that and to try to, you know, have those conversations and make an excuse to get together outside of that because, you know, you can have friends at school, you can have friends at an activity, but if you're not getting together outside of that, you're not sort of cementing that friendship and making it stronger. So, you know, say your son was at the motocross and he's chatting with someone, maybe he's going to say, oh, you know, do you want to catch up and work on your bike on the weekend? Or, I don't know what they do or do you want, you know, there's a new track that I found.
Vivian Dunstan [00:50:12]:
You know, it's kind of near where you live. Do you want to come over and do that one time? You know, you're kind of just throwing out, you know, and this is something that they struggle with because they don't want that rejection. They're worried about the rejection, but encouraging them to do that, you know, because if you don't ask, may have been in the same situation yourself. I know sometimes I do. I get busy and I don't call a friend, and then I think, oh, I feel like I've got no friends. And then, you know, the minute that you message them and say, hey, do you want to get coffee? Do you want to go for a walk? You're like, okay, I can fill up a, you know, a week with some social activities. But when you don't do it and you're relying on somebody else to do it, it might not happen. And that doesn't mean it's because other people don't want to do it.
Vivian Dunstan [00:50:55]:
It's just because other people, maybe they are scared to ask as well. So just throwing it out there like, hey, you know, and think about it beforehand, the thing that you might ask them to do. And it's the same idea for dating. You don't just say, do you want to go on a date? You've already thought about it beforehand. You've thought, oh, well, I know this person likes surfing. Maybe I'm going to say, I'm going surfing on surf today, would you like to come? And it's a bit more casual than saying, well, do you want to go on a date? And it was the same with friendships. I'm going to go try out this new track. It'd be great.
Vivian Dunstan [00:51:35]:
Do you want to come with me? And once they've had a get together and it's gone successfully and that's something another module that we talk about in the course, you know, how do you make that go successfully? Follow up on that, keep the momentum going. Message. That's an excuse to message. It's not just an out of the blue message. You're like, oh, really enjoyed the ride. We should do that again sometime and keep that chat going so that you've got that chat outside of the activity. You're going to see them in the activity again. And then hopefully, if your get together's gone well, you know, maybe that's something you're going to do again.
Vivian Dunstan [00:52:13]:
But, yeah, getting together with people outside of the activity or outside of school or work or whatever it is, that's when you really get to know people. You're able to talk to them more, you're making memories together, you're having fun together, and that's, you know, really how friendships, or stronger friendships form, isn't it?
Sharon Collon [00:52:32]:
Look, I have learnt so much today. Just thank you so much for your time. Vivian, you've shared so many goals, you know, practical tips, you know, to get us thinking about social skills and get us thinking about, you know, how we approach this really tricky thing to navigate, which is. It is tricky. It's tricky for a lot of people.
Vivian Dunstan [00:52:52]:
Yeah, it's very, it's very nuanced and, you know, we take it for granted sometimes. I think that's, you know, the good thing about peers is that it breaks it down into those steps that you wouldn't really think about. And I liken that a bit, too. You know, where someone's struggling to learn to read, you know, one kid will just, you know, do it really easily and the other person's really struggling, and they need more explicit instruction to be able to get that, you know, the phonics and the, you know, that extra help. And it's the same with social skills. Sometimes it needs to be broken down into the, into the smaller chunks so that people can get the hang of it. And then they're like, oh, okay. So know what to do now.
Vivian Dunstan [00:53:33]:
And then when you know what to do, you feel more confident to move forward with it and give it a go.
Sharon Collon [00:53:38]:
And what I'm taking away is, you know, and what I'd love for people to take away that it is a skill that can be taught, and it's like something that we can build on. You know, it's not something that you're either good at or you're not good at. You can work on it and, you know, develop friendships and develop relationships and practice, and sometimes you will bomb out and sometimes you will do okay, and that's okay, too.
Vivian Dunstan [00:54:02]:
And on that, you know, some people do criticize it and say, well, you know, people shouldn't have to be told what to do. They should just be themselves, and, you know, that's fine. Obviously not forcing anyone to come to social skills training. It's people that want to have that training. But when you think about it, we're all using social skills all of the time. You know, we're using them now. I'm not doing anything that might make people, well, I hope not. Might make people think, oh, that's a bit odd, or that's a bit rude or, you know, things like that.
Vivian Dunstan [00:54:36]:
You know, you, you have to kind of act appropriately in society. Otherwise people are going to judge you. And, you know, if you don't mind people judging you, that's fine to, you know, carry on, but, you know, yeah, like I say, some people think that you shouldn't need to. Other people want to.
Sharon Collon [00:54:56]:
Yeah. But I think the flip side is, for a lot of people, not knowing that they can build social skills causes people a lot of hurt. You know, not being, not having social skills causes individuals and our kids a lot of hurt. So, you know, if it. If it's something as simple as, you know, teaching them how to approach a group and teaching them that they can choose to use or not use, it's completely optional, but it's giving them tools that they can draw upon if they want to, you know, that's, that's powerful.
Vivian Dunstan [00:55:25]:
And I think overall, as well, it's, you know, once you use those tools and you feel more confident. Oftentimes it's the confidence, because when you're not confident and you don't reach out to people and you don't talk to people, people can't get to know the amazing person that you are. And that's really sad, you know, that you're going to be an awesome friend to someone, but because you don't say anything or you don't reach out to people that nobody knows that. So, you know, and, yeah, I sort of see quite a few young people in that position. And, you know, that's why, you know, I find it really rewarding to sort of try to, you know, move the needle in some way towards, you know, because it does impact on all of your life, really. And as I said, that can be in work, in romance, friendships, even your education and so on, getting jobs, all sorts of areas. So, you know, it is a really important thing. It's, you know, primarily we want to make friends and be happy, but it has wider implications as well.
Vivian Dunstan [00:56:37]:
So, yeah.
Sharon Collon [00:56:39]:
Thank you so much for sharing your wonderful knowledge with us today.
Vivian Dunstan [00:56:43]:
Vivian.
Sharon Collon [00:56:43]:
I'm so happy to have you on the podcast. Thank you.
Vivian Dunstan [00:56:47]:
Thank you for having me. It's been a pleasure.
Sharon Collon [00:56:50]:
Thank you for listening to this episode of the ADHD Families podcast. If you loved it, please share it on your socials. I want this to start a conversation about ADHD. If you want to make this mum do a little happy dance, please leave a review on iTunes. If you would like to know more about what we do, check out thefunctionalfamily.com. i truly hope that you enjoyed this podcast and you use it to create a wonderful, effective, joyful life with your beautiful children.
